For example workplace harrasment by women towards males like touching or groping being ignored because the victim is male but if it where to happen to a woman by a male the male would be fired
Dress code at work. I work in investment banking. On a hot summer day I have to wear smart shoes, black socks, long trousers, long sleeved shirt. Women can wear whatever. It’s fucking horrible
I work in a company that seems to have mostly women in management roles and the area I work in has mostly women in our area as well. The things I’ve heard women say about men though would get any guy shit-canned within a day if he were to say anything like that about women. Women can straight-up say things like, “I hate men” or “Men are such assholes” or “What is wrong with men?” or “Guys are so stupid!” or “My husband is such a fucking idiot” or saying blatantly sexual shit about men that they have crushes on or find attractive. It’s just a joke to them, like whatever. Meanwhile, if a guy were to say anything even remotely approaching to what I’ve heard in our office, they would be gone like nothing, there’s just no tolerance for that.
And don’t get me wrong, I’m not offended by women saying sexist things like that or talking sexually about guys, I don’t give a shit, I’ve heard worse from other guys. That doesn’t bother me and I’m not looking to get anybody in trouble over it, I just want tolerance from both sides. What bothers me is that men aren’t afforded that same courtesy and aren’t allowed to talk the same way. Women can talk shit at work all they want about men because “Fuck the patriarchy, old white men are ruining everything, etc”, but whooo, if a guy says anything remotely out of line about women, they will be reported like that 🫰.
Some good examples:
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Fat acceptance and body positivity. Obesity is glorified (even fetishized) when it’s a woman, whereas obese men are shunned. Have you noticed that nobody in the fat acceptance movement is vouching for the 300lb basement dwellers?
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Older ladies who date younger guys are called cougars, whereas if you flip the gender roles, an older man dating a younger lady half his age is going to be labelled a pedophile, even if she’s of-age. Just look at at the anger surrounding Tobey Maguire (48 years old) dating a 20 year old actress. There are people who legitimately think men like him should be hunted for sport.
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The amount of effort you have to put into your dating profile. Women have the opposite problem of being inundated with matches even with minimal effort.
The body positivity one really upsets me. A few years ago Target rearranged the clothing area. The men’s area shrank and the women’s is like three times are big. The women’s area has all manner of plus sized models and mannequins. Nothing of the sort in the men’s.
It’s like, I’ve always known body positivity (when it comes to corporations doing it) is extremely one sided and they’re only chasing profits but I’d never seen it so literally before. Target was one of my favorite places to shop for clothes.
I think I get what you’re saying but let’s be honest in that a larger guy half the time will just need an XL T-shirt. The sizes of these areas for merchandise are relative to consumer demands and consumer volume by sex. As someone who worked at Target for a couple of years back in the day, yes, far more women shop there. And the style of dressing for women has always been more diverse.
With respect to the mannequins, there seems to be a difference in the perception of average body types in reflection based on the gender. Perhaps this is more a trait of conservative men, but no matter how much of a beer belly they have, they seem to want to be perceived like they’re macho manly six-pack men. Marketing plays to that. On the flip-side, it has become trendy to give comfort to women who – by far – receive far more bullying over being large both online and offline. No doubt as a white male I feel fucking privileged by contrast of what my sisters or wife have gone through at times in their lives.
I think I get what you’re saying but let’s be honest in that a larger guy half the time will just need an XL T-shirt.
I’m being honest when I tell you that I need 2X.
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No one calls a woman a babysitter or says she’s “giving dad a break” when she’s somewhere with her own children.
As a guy who’s trying dating again, there’s something that keeps coming up that kinda bugs me: talking to women who just put in the bare minimum of effort, expect me to carry the conversation and make all the first moves.
I don’t give two shits about traditional gender roles and I’m all about subverting them. However, I think if you’re in the same boat but still wanna call yourself a “passenger princess” and expect the guy to do everything, you’re kind of a hypocrite.
This kind of thing drives me mad.
If we both like each other, why don’t we communicate like adults instead of playing some stupid game?
if we both like each other
I think the number of women* who are looking for a man to spend time with because she enjoys his personality are outnumbered by women who like the attention they get when they post a picture of the meal her date paid for to Instagram.
*here defined as “adult female humans somewhere between the age of majority and menopause existing in the present day found in the Western, English-speaking world” for those of you who want to so helpfully remind me that women in South Sudan or Mongolia that aren’t like that.
I don’t see much problem with this. It’s one thing to advocate for everyone having greater freedoms to form non-heteronormative-style relationships, and an entire other thing to necessarily want that for yourself. That’s what Feminism is about after all, a broadening of accepted lifestyles and freedoms - not necessarily a complete shift to a paradigm that prohibits the previous one. In this kind of case, it just sounds like you are discovering up front that you two are not seeking the same type of relationship, which is good to find out early.
It’s kind of like advocating for a bike lane in your city despite you not biking and having no interest in biking. I don’t think you’re a hypocrite for not using freedoms you advocate for.
I’ve got a theory that women put more effort into dating apps than we think. It’s just spread across so many more people.
Oh yeah, I’ve seen the other side of things through female friends. They generally have the opposite problem as men.
I’d heard about guys doing stupid shit on dating apps like sending unsolicited dick pics or just going straight for sexual stuff and figured it was maybe a “yeah it happens once in a while” kinda thing, because I’d personally never do something like that. But in fact it seems like a large portion of the interactions are just that bad.
So I can understand not putting in a lot of effort initially. Starting with small talk and making sure it’s not a waste of your time. I do the exact same thing.
But even after it feels like I’ve started to establish a rapport with someone, the conversation still can feel incredibly one-sided. It’s like, okay, at this point you’re just kinda being disrespectful. And it happens over and over again.
Drop these conversations, let them go cold. This person clearly has no affinity with you or doesn’t value you. Move on.
Yes, thank you, I never would have figured that out without your brilliant insight.
Unfortunately, because of the aforementioned probationary period at the start of any conversation, it can take some time before it becomes clear that the other person just isn’t that interested.
Can I still be annoyed at my time and effort being wasted? Or is it just my fault for being a man on a dating app?
Just want to let you know that you aren’t alone. I have talked to a number of women who advocate for things like DEI and acceptance (which is something I also believe quite strongly in) but often default to preferring more traditional gender norms in dating. When pressed on the issue (not like I’m interrogating them just through normal conversations and getting to know them) they will inevitably say that it is ultimately “just their preference”.
What I find so odd about that “preference” is if a man behaves in accordance with the traditional/societal gender norms in the beginning of the courting process, why is it surprising that they do the same thing later in the relationship when it comes to sharing emotional labor or various types of household chores?
I know the below is taking it to a bit of an extreme example but that behavior and “preference” often reminds me the sentiment “the only moral abortion is my abortion”. Like I get it, there are a lot of shitty people out there who have no interest in putting in the effort, and they absolutely are not worth the time and effort, but when you do meet someone who is willing to put in that effort, it isn’t really fair to treat them like all those other people.
Men are in a kind of catch-22. Women say they want one thing but their actions usually say they want the opposite.
Not really. It’s quite easy to understand. They generally want feminism when it benefits them, but traditional gender roles when it benefits them.
I don’t blame them though, I also want things that benefit them. But it’s a dick move to do it with feminism, which is supposed to mean equality.
It’s not equality when they can pick and choose when to be equal.
Isn’t egalitarianism the term for equality?
NGL I searched the term. Egalitarianism is about all people.
Feminism is only about eliminating the unfair inequalities between men and women.
Same, I am bi, and that is the reason I stopped trying to date women, or anyone who behaves like that for good measure, because some guys try to pull that same stunt.
I want a partner who is as interested and as into dating me as I am into dating them, someone who puts the time in and makes an effort, makes me and my time feel valued, and is also willing to to invest themselves and their time on me, and I don’t know if I was just unlucky, but I never found a woman who was into that. But then again, I pretty much only dated teens and women in their early 20s, as I liked dating people on my own age group and it was at those ages that I was actively dating women.
But from an outsider’s perspective, now on my late 30s, the straight dating market looks awful, I think I’ll stick with men.
I keep hearing horror stories on lesbian dating market, males seems to be doing fine and only group getting along lol
also, all these theories on domestic abuse but don’t lesbians have the highest rates of abuse?
They do, according to the studies I have read. And unlike a lot of studies, that default to male violence in straight cases of domestic violence, a lot of the lesbic cases seem to be tagged as mutual violence.
Don’t know if it is bias on the measuring bodies, since a lot of people claim female on male violence is not a thing, and that the moment a man strikes a woman, no matter the circumstances, it is male on female. Including a case I witnessed, where a female family member attacked her boyfriend with a knife, he disarmed her and since he bruised her while doing so, he was removed from the house and lost custody of his own daughter.
So one thing I noticed is that women betraying their partner has become extremely normalized
- Every “ethical non monogamous” relationship I’ve seen IRL is just a woman pressuring their long term monogamous partner into a situation where she has multiple partners and she’s struggling
- “Monkey Branching”, where a woman starts dropping hints at one guy while still seeing another in hopes of making a seamless transition, is pretty accepted. Emotional affairs are only a thing for men apparently
- While it’s always been acceptable to leave a guy if he can’t “provide” for you, it’s really fucking stupid in the context of modern feminism
- Women who use OLD are often encouraged to have a “roster” of men, who they form a well beyond casual connection to.
- There’s a large number of 30+ year old women breaking up with their long term partners to “find themselves”. I put that in quotations because this usually just involves a ton of casual sex. It’s basically the modern day equivalent of a guy leaving his wife for the secretary
- There are a million different love triangles on TV. They are almost all two guys and a woman who is disrespectful of both. The guys get mad at each other and the women’s behavior is not portrayed as toxic.
- Like 80 percent of holiday movies involve a woman leaving her fiance for a man she just met. This is always seen as romantic, instead of psychotic.
In addition to all that, women are extremely reluctant to criticize other women. This stands even when another woman is behaving in an almost objectively toxic way. I moved post covid. The first year I witnessed a fuckton of toxic behavior, but when I tried to point it out I would get dirty glances from women. The second year there I ended up getting close to other women in those conversations who took it upon themselves to tell me in a smaller setting that they actually agreed with me, but they didn’t want to appear unsupportive.
Whatever the intention there, the mentality enabled a subset of women to be shitty and probably convinced a lot of men that such behavior was something most women were okay with.
I almost never meet women like this so maybe it depends on your area. I’d love to be in a woman’s roster but they all want monogamous relationships.
Trust me, you don’t. These women will often want the full emotional availability of a romantic partner from you, with a fraction of both the emotional and physical availability of a partner from them. They generally want a monogamous relationship, just from an emotionally unavailable guy who is very physically attractive. Above all else, they will not be honest about your “ranking”.
Almost any woman who is halfway sane and willing to use online dating tends to get into a relationship in like three months tops. There’s also a decent number of women who are either not looking for a relationship, or would like a relationship but think the apps are super toxic.
However around 10 to 15 percent of the women I meet are very much architects of their own misery. These women are extremely vocal, generally shitty to their potential partners, and can always find more partners due to the nature of OLD. The frustrating part is I haven’t met a single woman who calls out this behavior, and a significant amount that actually reassure these people.
My GF insists that most women are just trying to be supportive, and that they don’t actually approve of the toxic behavior in question. My conversations with closer female friends backs this up. However in my eyes all this does is enable and normalize said behavior. It is also especially frustrating because I’m 100 percent expected to speak out if another guy does something remotely problematic.
These women will often want the full emotional availability of a romantic partner from you, with a fraction of both the emotional and physical availability of a partner from them.
That’s a whole separate issue from women having a roster of men.
Idk about emotional availability. I just want a fuck buddy. If she can’t provide that, she’s gone.
That’s about you being able to enforce your own boundaries, bro
Okay so what do you suggest I do. Cut out every single female friend in my life? Convince my single male friends, as a man in a relationship, to boycott online dating apps?
The only behavior uncommon enough to actually get away from are ethically non monogamous relationships and straight up cheating. That’s 100 percent a red line for me at this point. Everything else is so ubiquitous that I’m basically forced to put up with it if I want to be social.
It sounds like you haven’t seen any healthy ethnically non-monogamous relationships. That’s a shame. As a part of one, I’ve seen several others as well. It can work, if it’s done for the right reasons and if all partners respect each other.
You know it’s funny. I hear a million different accounts of ethnically monogamous relationships that work, but only on the internet where it’s impossible to get the full context.
I know it’s a typo but I’m cracking up at
ethnically non-monogamous
Well, for one, the ability to freely talk about issues specific to their gender without judgement by ~20% of the population
I was also confused by the amount of downvotes
We had to shutter [email protected] because of persistent and vocal judgement by a large population of Lemmy users, many from Lemmy.World. So no, talking about issues specific to their gender is definitely not a double standard where men get the short end of the stick.
This is why you get judged. Because you so nakedly put on display how much ignorance and little empathy you have for women’s issues.
[email protected] exists specifically for men who understand their issues in society are intersectional with women’s issues, and that solving them requires uniting to end patriarchy. Any discussion outside of that framing deserves the assumption that it’s a misogynist men’s pity party.
Why is it okay for twoX to be devoted to women’s issues and actively discourage comparing them to men’s issues, but men can’t have an analogous space?
Fwiw, if your twoX was different from previous similarly-named communities then I am sorry it closed.
I think you misunderstood me. I do think men should have an analogous space. I support [email protected] 100%.
If you didn’t misunderstand me, men don’t need a space specifically for comparing their issues negatively against women’s issues. That space is everywhere and anywhere, as evidenced by this discussion occurring in [email protected] and collecting overwhelmingly positive upvotes.
Your comments here are an example of double standard.
You are asking for men issues to stay in groups specific to that issue. Anyone who did the same for questions about women would be called a misogynist.
Wow, you’re really reaching there. I’m asking you to stop blaming women for men’s problems. There’s a group of people who aren’t doing that, and if you don’t want to be called a misogynist, follow the example of that group.
Nah, this is textbook double standards.
You are part of the problem that is stopping true equality. If men have everywhere to work through issues so you need a special place to do it, how does that end. You forever stay locked in that safe space because men own the public forum? Or do you try to fight for your spot in the public forum, attacking the only place you allowed men to work through issues? Or do you want a place in the public forum and your own space?
So by your own logic women have their own communities and the general forum is for men, because of this post. So should women be told not to discuss their issues in general forums like Ask Lemmy and stick to their own communities? I mean these are for men right? Seems messed up to me.
Why not just let everyone have a seat at every table? Be truly open and equal, instead of men deciding what women can have and women deciding what men can have. It’s not a hard concept.
It’s people like you that make the divide bigger every time you fight for “equality”.
I’m asking you to stop blaming women for men’s problems.
And yet you’re the exact type of person to blame men for women’s issues lol
Your mental gymnastics are funny
You’re from twoX. You hate men unconditionally
Men’s Lib on lemmy is an explicitly feminist space, and all the men there are in the pathetic friendzone white knight “women can do no wrong” space.
How do you define feminism because I wouldn’t call feminists “pathetic friend zone white knight ‘women can do no wrong’” types.
It’s not a causal thing. I’m saying both a and b are true, not that b is true because of a.
Please go back to Reddit. Seems like a much better place for misandrists. We’re trying to build a healthy community here
Cut bits of a girl baby’s genitals: jail.
Cut bits off a boy baby’s genitals: An occasion for a fucking party.
Also to add on to this
Mothers showing pictures of their naked boys as babies, totally fine
Father’s showing images of their naked daughters as babies, people go wtf
I wish people didn’t show those images at all or even take them reguardless of gender
And old men can suck on the wound.
Say what ?!? Is this real ?
Yes, rabbi use to suck on baby dicks after mutilating them. Iirc a lot of them stopped doing it after giving a few babies herpes.
Clothes in general, I could borrow my husband’s shirt and nobody would bat an eye but I’d he borrowed mine (he can’t because I’m smaller, but assuming we were the same size-ish) would look strange.
I don’t think groping is gonna be ignored in any workplace, in any direction.
In some workplaces it’s even ignored in both directions. At last, true gender equality! /s
Many (basically all) companies will completely ignore an issue until they’re absolutely forced to act on it, it’s pretty par for the course.
I’ve read enough accounts from both men and women to know that sexual harassment is not taken seriously at many places.
One that constantly comes up between me and my partner is fashion related. She is very liberal but when it comes to our relationship is the exact opposite. She buys everything from lacy thongs and g-strings to boy shorts underwear. She hates that I as a man wear thong and bikini underwear, too. I’m athletic, lift and workout 5 days a week, and get hot very easily. I like the support and minimalism of thongs for that, but she always buys me boxers which are uncomfortable and bunch up and all the extra fabric and cotton makes me hot and sweaty and chafe. When I bring up she wears thongs just do she doesn’t have panty lines and I wear them for comfort and support she doesn’t understand. She also mentioned she thinks guys wearing thongs is weird but then says it’s so “brave” when gay guys do it during pride. I once called her out and homophobic for assuming it’s a fetishized gay guys only thing and she got mad, but am I wrong?
You’re definitely not wrong. If she’s willing to undermine or criticize your clothes preference after you’ve already told her why you like them and you don’t want to change, what else is she willing to undermine?
I feel very comfortable sharing with her, especially since I grew up in an extremely conservative area of the south and she grew up in an upper class suburb in the Bay Area in California. She knows when I’m feeling “off” because it manifests in body language she picks up on and tries to get me to share (I.e. when I’m having work or family problems) but it’s been hard to break that “men don’t share their feelings” attitude I was raised with. She actually buys me clothing that is vibrant and traditionally female brands (lulu, Madewell, etc…). That’s why I was kind of taken aback when I first started wearing my thongs around her and she was like “are those women’s panties?” Because they were brightly colored pink pair of a male thong from MeUndies. I explained they are the comfortable for support when engaging in cardio and lifting and she was like, “I don’t like seeing you in them”.
In the same way I grew up in a very conservative area and this is a unique way to express myself and enjoy feeling sexy, I think she grew up in the opposite and that’s why she was attracted to stoic, lumbering me. She has jokingly called me a “brute” in a loving way and says she is fascinated how I just “power through” manual labor for 12 hours at a time on the weekend doing projects and lifting heavy stuff around our house. I think she just has a biological urge to see me as that big protector.
Also, she always talks about how she doesn’t like muscle on guys, but since we have been together I have put on a lot of muscle and the more I put on the more she is constantly squeezing my arms and shoulders and putting her head on my chest… but she has also noticed that other women will feel my arms in public and I think she gets a little jealous
The shit older women said (and did) to me when I drove a cab in my twenties.
Also, not wanting to fuck someone, even if they’re somewhat attractive.
If you’re a dude and your older female boss forces you to have sex with her under threat of losing your job, everyone just says “that’s awesome what’s the problem?”.
I had a professor do this to me. Was an adult going to night school, in my last year. She was about ten years older than me and we hit it off in a way I assumed was a professional student/teacher relationship. Had this with other professors as well.
She told me to meet her at a hotel once, thought she was joking and when I didn’t show was furious. Told her it just seemed odd, and she told me she is getting another one this weekend and not to worry about it, but if I didn’t show there would be consequences.
Through a lot of double speak she let me know if it didn’t happen, there would be no graduation for me. Not knowing what to do, bought a pack of condoms and showed up to the hotel. “No, we aren’t using those”. And that was several of my weekends until graduation. There was zero possibility of saying no, and no one to complain to. I can tell the story online and that’s about it.
Wait what? You can’t be serious! You did this instead of reporting her to the school?
Yes, I bitched on the internet. It was something that happened almost ten years ago, but it’s not like the school would have ever done anything. Let’s be honest about how this stuff plays out.
This thread is scary, a lot of you are being upvoted but your statements are just jealousy and anger.
Lots of projection going on here.
Lots of yall mad at women engaging in the type of behavior us men have exhibited forever.
You sure? Because what I’m seeing is a lot of sexual abuse towards guys that’s not being taken seriously, or workplace social abuse towards guys that’s mostly ignored.
Yeah, I’m pretty sure.
If you think I’m referring to the situations where men are referring to their abuse instead of the comments where people are just whining about women acting selfishly or shitty then that’s on you.
In fact my statement was specifically NOT about that.
https://lemmy.world/comment/11993090
^ women are now dating younger men, it isn’t fair.
https://lemmy.world/comment/11985350
^ women being empowered to find a new partner, sometimes on a whim.
https://lemmy.world/comment/11987028
^ women get away with everything and men nothing
https://lemmy.world/comment/11982251
^ the patriarchy being wielded by women against men … seriously?
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/13517729
^ opposite gendered things being not allowed for men … this one is so telling
https://lemmy.zip/comment/12800294
^ anecdote of this guys shitty relationship.
https://programming.dev/comment/11913607
^ this is just so shockingly blind and ignorant it’s hard to even refute. Women’s appearances have been basically the domain of us men for millennia or more.
You’re really representing a lot of these with bad faith. It seems like you came into this thread with a view and used anything said to justify that view.
Your first call out about and ignores the entire point being made and the clear double standard being called out. You seem more willing to play the victim than have an honest conversation on equality.
Imagine if men behaved this way about women discussing double standards, it wouldn’t make you feel good. So why do it to men?
If you believe the patriarchy doesn’t harm men and can’t be enforced or upheld by any gender, you have an incomplete view of what patriarchy is.
Yeah, so, you are talking about exactly the kind of comments I thought you were talking about.
Way to go continuing to ignore legitimate issues, brushing them off as “jealous whining”.
I didn’t realize this was an incel community, my bad.
Go back back to othering
It’s behaviour like yours that makes the world’s problems stay the world’s problems. Ironically you’re the kind of person this thread is about.
Go back back to othering
The irony…
“For example workplace harassment by women towards males like touching or groping being ignored”
This is absolutely not a double standard in society in most workplaces. I’ve never encountered an HR department that wouldn’t take this extremely seriously. I’m not saying those HR depts don’t exist, but they’re certainly not the norm
HR response isn’t the only thing though. A number of years ago, my (F) partner (M) was sexually harassed by his female boss. He didn’t report it to HR, but he did sometimes bring it up around his friends. He had multiple people who base a lot of their identity on their feminism/acceptance/equality views tell him it wasn’t possible for him to be a victim of sexual harassment.
And then if he brought it up around more normie people, especially guys, the most frequent first question was, “Is she hot?”
The responses he got from so many people were part of why he never took it to HR. The other part was that she was smart enough to never do it in writing, so it would have been he-said-she-said. It was just easier to get a new job.
Everyone says to talk about your problems but the second you do, you’re told that women either have it worse or how they have some worse problem. I’ve largely stopped talking about my problems because I’m never heard, just talked past or worse, made out to be the problem. The older I get the more reinforced my silence is because evey time I open up it’s used against me and this is just normal.
Meanwhile I’m expected to play therapist when someone else talks about their problems and I have to stop my autistic ass from telling them I really don’t want to hear about you. I can’t even get the silence I give returned to me.
