CRISPR and other tools aren’t science fiction anymore. If the wealthy get there first, what happens to everyone else?
As someone suffering from a terrible genetic disease that will kill me soon, any amount of preventing these diseases under any circumstances gets a thumbs up from me.
Sadly, the most probable cloning related future would be Gattaca
^(edit typo)
Yeah, I think we should probably allow the technology that will prevent people being born with these diseases first, and then worry about how we’re going to deal with the other stuff. This technology isn’t going to be possible to hold back indefinitely anyway.
Technology is (at least for now) not exclusive to the rich. There can be secret billionaires’ secret labs and underground diy labs. Since few science fiction pops up in the topic abd CRISPER is mentioned, I am going to leavd CRISPER cookbook and Chapter 2 which was written in response to Roe vs Wade.
There is already a separate class of rich people
The thing you are afraid of is already happening
Rich people and their kids get world class health care, including helicopter flights to hospitals for life saving surgery. The rest of us die in the waiting room.
Rich people and their kids never have to work a day in their lives. We all have to work until we die.
Rich people and their kids get to enjoy luxury, fulfillment, gratification and a style of living that we cannot possibly imagine. We have to pirate movies because we can’t afford to see them in theaters.
Shhh!
You’re not supposed to say the quiet part out loud!
Just keep pretending our societies are equitable.
The plot of the film Gattaca explores this, the idea of what society looks like when there’s a class of genetically engineered, “superior” people, vs. the naturally born, “inferior” class.
The Beggars Trilogy by Nancy Kress touches on this as well, but is more focused on the issues with superintelligence rather than just gene alteration, although, because people are vain, the preference for things like hair, skin and symmetry also exist in the story’s world. Oh yeah, and the coolest concept from this trilogy is a thing called “sleeplessness”, where people can alter there genes to remove the biological need to sleep, allowing people to be able to be productive for as many hours as they desire.
Not seen Gattaca, but a multi-tier, genetically structured society is the basis of Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World, which is well worth a read.
That movie is 9/10. The ending is absolutely beautiful.
Spoilers!
If you insist:
spoiler
Jude Law is in it
I HAVE SPOILED NOTHING.
Is that the movie about (sorry for the bad synopsis) Where the guy vacuums his work desk because he wants to go to space?
That is correct
Thank you. I just wanted to make sure I remembered the right movie.
I now challenge anyone who haven’t seen it to deduce the rest of the plot, based only on my description.
Jude Law, something something treadmill
Gigolo Joe?
Washing yourself in the shower, difficulty level “going to space”
Okay, but the moral of the story was that “superior” people weren’t actually superior. They were just racist.
The protagonist outwits and outperforms them all.
Seems like a pretty bad execution of the concept, then.
That’s the joke tbh.
Tbh, I think GATTACA barely touched the topic. It focussed so much on the brothers’ rivalry that you could strip out the genetic engineering part and it’d barely change the movie
Yeah it’s a cool movie but the message of systemic disadvantages don’t matter if you try hard enough is a little questionable at best.
The issue wasn’t “try hard enough”. It was how systematic disenfranchisement hobbles people far more than their genetics.
Once you brand someone as “lesser”, their actual capacity is irrelevant. They won’t be given the opportunity to succeed (much less to fail and try again) while the presumed-superior cohort is offered advantage after advantage in order to prove they are better.
I think it’s trying to show we are more than just our genetics, there’s a lot of nurture/environment/action that affects outcomes. The protagonist had drive, determination, exercised and worked for the dream. Most eugenic people didn’t have the same drive and took life for granted, so he could outperform them.
Its complicated in its portrayal, for sure. It comes off at a glance like “just signam grindset bro,” but really the protagonist had to lie, cheat and steal his way to his dream, while also being an absolute fatalist while pushing his body near to death. Even then, he still needed to convince a doctor to fake his results at the end. That’s not a pro “grindset” or “you can overcome” message really. It shows how absolutely fucked you are if you aren’t born into advantage, how weighted everything is against you.
The movie would have hit harder if he got to the end and got caught and denied his dream. Just end with him in prison, staring out a window up at the stars.
Agree but people only want to watch happy endings.
For the kinds of class based gene editing we are likely to see, it kinda isn’t. More attractive, bigger boobs, better predisposition to fitness, etc. That is all surmountable.
Where it falls apart are “goofy” looking people likely Michael Phelps who are straight up genetic freaks. But those aren’t the kinds of genes the rich want… For themselves.
I mean, I would expect the first thing they would want to edit would be things like intelligence, level of optimisim/happiness, ability to be a social butterfly, ability to delay gratification and stick to long term goals, etc. In addition to being smokin’ hot, of course.
I really can’t imagine what China is doing…
Trump is directly undermining national safety by abandoning higher education, college visas for foreigners, scientific studies etc.
15 years ago we knew exactly what China was doing. Now? Good luck
He is in many many ways. Thats what i mean with China.
…did you respond to the wrong comment?
I mean with CRISPR…
Chinese researchers publish in the same international journals everyone does, I don’t think they are using CRISPR any differently than anyone this side of the pacific is.
The verdict said the three defendants had not obtained qualification as doctors, pursued fame and profits, deliberately violated Chinese regulations on scientific research, and crossed an ethical line in both scientific research and medicine, according to Xinhua. It also said they had fabricated ethical review documents.
It’s illegal.
They follow the law?
I doubt any more or less than people here do
Same for Jules Vernes - The Time Machine book in the part where the traveler meets the Morlocks and the Eloi.
H. G. Wells wrote The Time Machine, not Verne.
Great movie, excellent performances
We need to make CRISPR as easy as 3D printing. Open source genetic modification.
Sure, we’ll get lunatics making doomsday viruses in their basement, but also other lunatics designing vaccines for them you can make with your own desktop bioreactor.
More importantly, we’ll also get people turning themselves into catgirls.
Screw cyberpunk; biopunk’s where it’s at.
Naw I think its wetware.
In Echopraxia, the transhuman pilot repeatedly calls the old guy a “roach”.
“I’ve told you before, Daniel: roach isn’t an insult. We’re the ones still standing after the mammals build their nukes, we’re the ones with the stripped-down OS’s so damned simple they work under almost any circumstances. We’re the goddamned Kalashnikovs of thinking meat.”
― Peter Watts, Echopraxia
And one of my favorite Heinlein quotes:
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
― Robert A. Heinlein
Ah once again i wish i read books… I think if I was to pick up a book it would be the novels behind the show The Expanse. I feel like they left a lot out of the show that was in the books.
We did the audiobooks of the expanse and loved them!
Definitely worth the read. The show was a great adaptation with some necessary compromises for a TV adaptation, but also, you have 3 (4) more books beyond season 6.
Aw man really? If there is an incentive to read that’s it.
Yes.
But it’s already here. Education is already doing what you’re fearing. Rich people tend to have access to better education and thus having access to better salaries, positions, etc.
Yep. Learned behavior is where human evolution actually happens; it’s our specialization, our niche as big brained, highly social, linguistic apes. Don’t gotta wait for random genetic changes that happen to encode useful new instincts. We just learn them from one another. Significantly speedier.
If rich people go mucking about with their genomes, it’s much more likely to backfire in unforeseen ways than to actually instill any sort of advantage. Genes are a messy, messy, messy means of encoding things.
If rich people go mucking about with their genomes, it’s much more likely to backfire in unforeseen ways
This really resonates with me. No person is that smart or has the level of foresight required to make those kinds of changes effectively (at very least in the long term).
From time to time i think of an author i had enjoyed years ago named Robert Anton Wilson. He was a warped sonofabitch, a Yund i can’t really claim to fully understand his philosophy, but even just as recently as this past week i found myself thinking about a concept he’d discussed at length: the idea that when one is very young, there are “imprints” impressed on your brain that really determine how you think/act/are. He had written a series about attempting to erase ones imprints and replace them with more advantageous ones.
He had spent just as much time warning about the dangers of attempting to do such a thing though. As much as anybody may like to think they know what’s best for themselves or anyone else, it’s astounding now frequently we can be wrong due to lack of information, bad judgement, bias, etc.
The genetic decisions one may choose to make for their offspring may have little/no relevance by the time those offspring arrive. I feel like it could be so much worse though. I imagine this is more like tweaking assembly code, but on an even more complex system that we don’t even fully understand yet. The most hubristic will convince themselves they know best, but i have to imagine reality will prove them wrong every time.
Gonna have to read those, thanks!
Not just education, but what really matters- social connections. The wealthy only want to socialize with other wealthy people, so when their kids begin entering adulthood they’ll give them a leg up. Wealthy people control access to many high-paying jobs; the classic example is wall st, where unless you’re a rocket scientist your daddy has to know someone to get an internship.
Yes. People fight for the $50K to $100K jobs, missing the boat on the $250K jobs.
Lets hope they dont weed out empathy.
They already have. The few very rich friends I have (money is no object people) are all great at pretending to have empathy but their actions belie them
Yep, they’ll act like they care, think that they care, but put the mildest of obstacles in front of them and they’ll throw a poor person into a meat grinder to avoid it. People who grew up with money have no character or idea how to weather any kind of hardship
That’s been SOP since… checks human history
Oh. Forever? Hunh.
True but this will accelerate it i guess.
Planet of the Rich, where the apes are billionaires and everyone else is… pretty much the same.
ha, dude this already exists. you can almost reliably determine success by zip code, because poor people dont deserve healthcare or education or to do anything but work their fingers to the bone to stay alive.
the whole genetic piece is just the final chapter
makes you wonder
Here’s a scarier thought, if they can fine tune this shit enough they’ll probably just clone themselves and pull a ship of Theseus on themselves. Removing the only remaining equalizer between them and the rest of humanity.
The rich fucks at the top want to become gods. They won’t call it that but that’s the end game for the ones with the most hand on the wheel.
That is just having heirs with more steps.
and an even greater dependency on industrial processes
The House of the Scorpion explores this further.
I’ll be dead, humanity is fucked as i see it but things could change i guess.
Humanity has been fucked many times before. Humans migrated out of Africa TWICE. We have been nearly wiped out several times. Maybe this will be the last time. Maybe Humans will migrate out of Africa a third time…
Reference provided, but not read.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_human_migrations
Can’t wait for them to make their kids super smart and then their kids call them idiots.
I’m thinking there are dominant and latent effects to any development, natural or engineered. This tech could have latent effects similar to uhh pedigreeing.
Because they will be smarter haha
I wouldn’t worry about it … evolution is all about the survival of the luckiest and most fortunate
Sure it is survival of the fittest, strongest and most capable … but often through earth’s history … survival is more often left to the survivors, the lucky few who were just fortunate to survive.
“Fittest” never meant “best”, just “most capable of effective adaptation”, FWIW.
“Luck” meaning, having a lucky mutation that’s beneficial to reproducing in the current ecosystem.
Luck as in ‘lucky enough to have your entire species wiped out by a single unforeseen catastrophic event or climatic change’
Dinosaurs would have evolved into more exotic forms if they hadn’t been wiped out by an asteroid
We might unfortunately end ourselves through our own actions in a similar way
Its the ones that adapt the fastest
I read that as “It’s the ones that adapt the fascist” :(
Back-alley gene editors and ripperdocs. You wanna be competitive? Can’t afford legit implants or gene therapy? Take a chance on DIY cybernetics and methlab gene splicing drugs!
Cyberpunk?
Life eventually imitates art.
Eventually?? Black Mirror and the Handmaid’s Tale aren’t really all that old, and look at us right now! It’s like it’s a how-to-guide for these fascists…
We don’t have back-alley gene editors yet 🤷♂️
That’s a worry, but also there’s still a lot of stuff we don’t understand about genetics, and a bunch of grifters who’ll fleece the super wealthy
