The meme itself is fine.
But shilling a one-state solution with it?
Not cool.
Though I see few anti-semitic remarks, other than the ones about Palestinians.
We’ve tried a 1 state solution for a long time
It’s probably time to start aknowledging the goal of Zionism is to take land from others, and aknowledge that the Zionist have too much influence in politics.
It’s either the Zionists go, or we just have to accept that Isreal wants to behave like a fascist colonizer and cut ties
Should European-Americans all “just relocate” since we occupied North America from the Native Americans?
Otherwise I don’t see how you’re any different than the Israelites.
Well one happened in living memory and people are still living in the houses of displaced people in Palestine.
This isn’t just about land. This about homes, farms, legacies, birthright, inheritances that have been stolen by living people from living people. Not a vague concept of belonging.
I hold equal disdain for all Abrahamic Religions.
They are a plague.
Ok… And? The meme is talking about antisemitism not anti-religiosity
Israel is allowed to literally cause a holocaust on the Palestinian people for the last 70+ years, backed by seemingly the majority of the political landscape and the population. Israelis chanting death to entire ethnicities but nooooo we can’t say anything that might hurt their poor lil feelings. Bunch of bollocks. You lot are a bunch of clowns that are entirely too comfortable with the deaths of brown people.
Israel is allowed to literally cause a holocaust on the Palestinian people for the last 70+ years
Palestine’s population has increased every single one of those 70+ years including the years after the October 7 attacks.
And? What’s your point? Does that make killing of innocents in a stolen land justified? Are you brain damaged?
Actually, technically, officially
“Israel” (declared may 1948) existed before “Palestine” (declared 1988).
The Jews and the Arabs have both been there for millennia, and the land has been contested since the dawn of recorded history.
It was originally called Canaan in the late Bronze Age (1500 - 1200 BCE).
Then in the Iron Age it was called Judea.
Then the Romans conquered the land and called it Syria Palestina (the land of Syrian “Phillistines”, aka uncultured/uncivilized people.)
Later that evolved into Palestine, which wasn’t codified until 1988, 40 years after the formation of Israel.
Both peoples have been there for millennia, both peoples have been committing atrocities on one another, and both peoples have a legitimate claim to the land.
This isn’t a simple black and white issue with good guys and bad guys. Claiming Israel is the bad guys because they’re the current aggressors, is like walking in on a fight and accusing the one who’s currently winning of being the whole reason for the fight in the first place.
You have to know the whole story, unbiased, looking from both sides, to understand a current conflict.
These lands and these people’s need outside arbitration.
They’re incapable of coming to a peaceful solution on their own. They’re too proud and they both feel too entitled and righteous.
One of them is currently more monied and has more support from imperialist governments, but they’ve both done horrible things to one another and ended millions of eachothers lives over millennia.
Israel is trying to put an end to it forever in the most effective way they can think of.
Violence.
It’s not fair.
If you study history, you will see not much about us is fair.
In recent times we have become abnormally civilized, but only just barely.
Israelis chanting death to entire ethnicities but nooooo we can’t say anything that might hurt their poor lil feelings. Bunch of bollocks. You lot are a bunch of clowns that are entirely too comfortable with the deaths of brown people.
“I just want to advocate for genocide! What’s the harm in that, other than some hurt feelings!?”
Okay, Zionist.
Hmm that’s a dumb reply. Please try better.
Man, you’re the one complaining that it’s not acceptable to advocate for genociding people of the wrong ethnicity because Israel did it first. Not really sure I’d trust the opinion of someone who wants to imitate Israel on what’s dumb or not.
Please show me where I have advocated for genocide of anyone or are you simply projecting here?
Also what do you mean with “the wrong ethnicity”?
I don’t want any innocent people to be harmed, no matter what religion or ethnicity. I do however think that the Palestinians at least deserve their land back that was stolen from them through relentless murder. Equally, hold those responsible accountable.
There are countless Jewish people around the world that are against the zionists murderous state of Israel. Are they also wrong?
puts on tin foil hat We’re being played by powerful outside agents (🇷🇺?) who are trying to stoke division that foments racial tensions, genocide, and international warfare, and ultimately inciting instability and civilian disillusionment with western governments and democracy by using money and/or blackmail to coerce politicians, lawmakers, and the media to conflate the difference between perceptions of the actions of a (theocratic) government and perceptions of the actions of historically persecuted ethnic and religious groups (among other simultaneous informational attacks not related to the meme but related to other perceived strategic weak points in our nations and cultures) in order for these outside agents to tactically manipulate the politicians, media, and governments they have on their payroll into mutually assured destruction such that the outside agents end up on top with global domination
No. People are just legitimately stupid.
So glad the literal antisemites came out on this post to play apologist for ethnically cleansing Israeli Jews ‘back where they came from’ in Europe for the crime of being born in Israel. I’m trying to think of how this differs from the Nazis wanting to deport Jews to Israel, but I’m coming up with a blank.
I guess there must be something substantially different, though, because obviously these brave anti-imperialists would never be antisemites. Even when they advocate for literal fucking genocide based on the very compelling and principled argument of “Israel committed genocide first!” /s
All of the people I’ve seen advocating that are talking about the people who were not born in Israel.
Is it really ethnic cleansing when the ethno-state they built continues to genocide their neighbors with the approval of the vast majority of its citizens?
By that logic that birth in Israel gives the right to stay there, this would in turn mean that this birth revokes the right to compensation for the ancestors that were murdered in the Holocaust or survived it and chose not to go back to Germany.
You cant have it both.
Typical Israeli apologist, dreaming of a hypothetical genocide of Israeli Jews when there’s an actual genocide being committed by the zionists. Do you ever get tired of being a victim?
Sorry that you think genocide is okay so long as it’s Good Genocide, unlike the Bad Genocide Israel is currently committing.
Some of us think genocide is bad, just on principle. Yes, really.
There you go again, making shit up in your head. Makes me think that you might not actually believe those words and just want to distract from the daily murder of innocent Palestinian people by reframing the poor poor Israelis that are suffering on stolen land. What a joke.
I love that ethnic cleansing is being defended in this very thread and your claim is that I’m making up these responses. Like, do you not own a pair of eyes? Or is it just too much fun playing mirror Hasbara?
If it’s antisemitic to call out and despise those that support the genocide of innocent children and civilians, then I’m a proud antisemite. That hill I WILL die on.
The meme is literally, explicitly, saying the opposite. That’s not antisemitic.
I do not think this is the point they were making, like at all.
Is it not? This meme says you’re allowed to criticize the government of Israel, but I’m taking it one step further and criticizing the population of Israel that supports killing babies, children, women, and innocents.
There’s a pretty big difference between criticizing Nazis and saying and entire population should be expelled.
No, that’s not antisemitic in the least. Israel is committing a genocide, and it should be treated as a pariah state and all measures possible employed against it to pressure it to cease.
What is antisemitic is, as mentioned in the title and seen advocated by people in this very comment section, advocating for the ethnic cleansing and genocide of Israel, especially when combined with the bizarre notion that Israel-born Israelis can just be shipped back to where their ancestors came from in Europe, like some bizarre mirror image of the Nazis in the 1930s planning to ethnically cleanse Germany of Jews by shipping them to where their ancestors came from in Palestine.
and all measures possible employed against it to pressure it to cease.
Including Palestinian military action and guerilla war, correct?
Yes. Unironically, critical support for suicide bombing of military targets. The only restraints I have to supporting Palestinian action are moral restraints - ie that while civilian collateral casualties are acceptable, such as during rocket barrages of legitimate targets, civilians should not be specifically targeted.
Pretty big difference between despising someone and wishing for an ethnic cleansing.
Yeah, I don’t know how to solve the issues of two separate families feeling ownership for the same location (fifty years ago, a Palestinian family including several living members was evicted from a home, and an Israeli couple moved in and then died, leaving their property to their children who played no role in taking the property from the Palestinians), but the solution is not to deport all of the Israelis from the region.
My first instinct would be that the government would need to build a LOT of desirable housing and offer a cash incentive to all current and former residents to cede ownership claims to other properties in exchange for the deed to one of the newer properties, but it immediately occurs to me that the wealth difference between the average Palestinian family and the average Israeli family is probably large enough that there would essentially be a self-selection bias. Especially given the fact that poverty and food insecurity reduce our ability to make good financial decisions.
I can’t think of a resolution for that situation that doesn’t involve someone feeling resentful. I’m not saying they have equal claim- but I know that the descendants of settlers are also people, who don’t want to be evicted from the (stolen) houses in which they were raised, and sowing resentment has not helped the region in the past.
I mean, eminent domain exists for this reason, but generally, compensation for stolen property is the norm because of the difficulty of dealing with inheritances and the like several steps removed from the original crime.
Recognizing the validity of residency is not the same as recognizing privilege. “You can stay under the same criteria as anyone else, because we aren’t here to engage in ethnic cleansing” and “Your property is sacrosanct and cannot be touched under any circumstances” are two different concepts, after all.
Oh, there are a thousand ways they could improve their current way of handling it. I just don’t know what the best way would be, though it would definitely involve eminent domain. I guess a lottery system for determining which families get the ancestral home?
I used to take solace in the fact that people smarter than I were in charge of this, so they could do better than that as a solution, but I’m increasingly skeptical that they actually will.
One of the most horrific things to learn in life is that not only are people in power often shitheads, they’re often stupid shitheads as well.
It’s… frustrating when examining policy discussions on an academic level.
I’m sure that instances like these far outweigh the exact opposite
By this logic Germans would not have had to give back the property that the Nazis robbed from the Jews. This is complete nonsense.
You cannot inherit legally, what was robbed from someone else. The legal ownership belongs to the original owners or their inheritors.
Any Israeli living in a house or on land they robbed, must either leave or buy it from the legitimate owners at a fair price. Irrespective of that the legitimate owners must also be fully compensated for the inability to use their land for all the years it was kept from them.
This is the legal and just way. Any other way invites more crimes and crimes against humanity as it rewards the criminals including by rewarding their descendants.
I’m sure the Israelis expelled from other countries where land was stolen from them will be pleased to hear this.
Thanks to Netanyahu and his goonies (such as Trump and Starmer) the word anti-semitist has lost all meaning.
Maybe to you? It’s pretty clear. The fact that this inoffensive meme says not to be anti semitic and you had to jump in with a reason to justify and blame someone else for the anti semitism is telling
I don’t think just to me. Extreme lobbying has brought us to a situation where they are now labelling genocide criticism as anti-semitic and illegal. So yea that builds some unpleasant reflex in people and its clear who is to blame for.
Im extra sensitive and aware of it. I’m indigenous but married to a Jewish woman. She’s in no way Israeli and is not political but she’s experienced anti semitism this past year more than any other. She’s been harassed outside of the Jewish family centre by protests, why are there protests in front of the Jewish centres?? Why do people equate all Jews on earth with Israel.
Not just that, nobody here seems to differentiate between Netanyahu and all Israelis as a whole, yet you guys get mad when I blame all Americans for trump
Well I mean anti semitist people (in real sense) is one type of shit and people who use the word antisemitism to justify their genocidal agenda is another type of shit. I wish we could put them all in the same bag and shoot them to space.
But the fact that I have to write (in the real sense) next to my comment about antisemitism is already demonstrating the damage the dickhead Netanyahu’s and Zionist lobbies’ approach is causing. It used to be a blame that sent shivers down people’s spine. Now not as much.
Any criticism of the Israeli government, no matter how milquetoast, gets called anti-semitic by defenders, folks shouldn’t be shocked when people shrug after a while, say, “guess I’m anti-semitic now”, and really let loose.
Any criticism of the Israeli government, no matter how milquetoast, gets called anti-semitic by defenders, folks shouldn’t be shocked when people shrug after a while, say, “guess I’m anti-semitic now”, and really let loose.
Uh, except for the bit where ‘letting loose’ is ‘revealing that they actually are antisemitic’. I generally assume that people, and especially left-leaning people, aren’t antisemitic even if Israel critiques them as such; to find out that a very nonzero amount actually are, and a much larger amount are willing to endorse or tolerate those antisemitic views, is deeply disturbing.
generally assume that people, and especially left-leaning people, aren’t antisemitic even if Israel critiques them as such
Aa a German leftist I cannot assume that. For example, German leftists placed a bomb at a Holocaust memorial event in a jewish community center in 1969. And during the hijacking of an Air France flight the RZ separated the passengers and kept only those with Israeli passports or “jewish sounding names” etc. as hostages (German Wikipedia, German article with quotes from RZ members).
Fun fact: two distinct events from 1969 and 1976 might not accurately represent the Left in 2025.
For one thing, everyone who participated in those atrocious acts are elderly or dead now. Most of the Left are neither.
Fun fact: two distinct events from 1969 and 1976 might not accurately represent the Left in 2025.
I never said they did. But they demonstrate that we can’t just assume that people aren’t antisemitic just because they are left(-leaning). Unless of course you don’t want to learn from history.
I never said they did.
You very heavily implied it, though.
But they demonstrate that we can’t just assume that people aren’t antisemitic just because they are left(-leaning)
Sure. Just like we can’t assume that people from Nepal don’t pollute. It’s not the norm or even something of heightened risk compared to other demographics.
Unless of course you don’t want to learn from history.
That’s rich coming from someone trying his best to leap to illogical conclusions based on two events that are specifically remarkable for being atypical.
I do think that most of the left wing people that ever lived are dead.
That’s very very true. However, none of the current Left is.
“No true leftist is antisemitic.”
(Presents several clear counterexamples)
“Well, that’s the exception. They are not true leftists!”
“No true leftist is antisemitic.”
A strawman inventing a no true Scotsman? That’s impressively fallacious 😄
I didn’t and indeed have never claimed that there are any antisemites on the Left. Unfortunately, a lot of people on the Left are starting from the point of “the country (incorrectly) claiming to be representative of all Jewdom has been committing unspeakable atrocities for a century” and being misled from there down rabbit holes that sometimes go all the way to ACTUALLY antisemitic conspiracy theory nonsense.
That being said, those people are a tiny minority, and your two examples from the days of disco and earlier don’t prove otherwise.
If the argument that being antisemitic precludes you from being a leftist, that’s not a fallacy. If you don’t abide by a set of beliefs, then you are not a follower of those beliefs.
I’m not a Scotsman because I’m not from Scotland.
Similarly, I don’t think most libertarians are true libertarians because they don’t care about liberties except their own. And if that’s the definition of libertarian, then everyone is a libertarian.
This is the same logic as “people have been calling me a Nazi, so now I am calling myself a Nazi”.
Idk, any Israeli citizen currently living there (that wasn’t born there) is a first generation colonizer, surely it’s not anti-semetic to call for that specific subgroup’s relocation, no?
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Over 70% of Israelis were born in Israel.
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Many of the remainder were young at the age of immigration, as most immigrants to Israel were historically not single working folk, but already-established families.
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Many of those immigrants are not European (or North American).
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A large proportion of those remaining are from countries which are either legitimately deeply antisemitic or no longer exist (such as emigrants from the Soviet Union).
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Would you advocate that policy of “Go back where you came from!” for the immigrants of any other country on earth?
Saying that Israelis can be expelled ‘back to Europe’ is not only ethnic cleansing, but utterly insane and racist besides.
By that logic that birth in Israel gives the right to stay there, this would in turn mean that this birth revokes the right to compensation for the ancestors that were murdered in the Holocaust or survived it and chose not to go back to Germany.
You cant have it both.
Also the Palestinians who were also born on that land and driven out, should then not have the right to return? This is just Imperialism and Apartheid with extra steps.
Unless the current illegal occupiers buy the land from the legitimate owners at a fair price and compensate the legitimate owners for the time of the illegal occupation, they have no right to remain on that land.
By that logic that birth in Israel gives the right to stay there, this would in turn mean that this birth revokes the right to compensation for the ancestors that were murdered in the Holocaust or survived it and chose not to go back to Germany.
… how much ‘compensation’ do you think modern Germany is paying out to the descendants of Holocaust survivors, again?
Also the Palestinians who were also born on that land and driven out, should then not have the right to return?
Yes, they should.
Unless the current illegal occupiers buy the land from the legitimate owners at a fair price and compensate the legitimate owners for the time of the illegal occupation, they have no right to remain on that land.
Can’t wait til you find out that your own land was once owned by another nation. Can’t wait til we dissolve Germany, strip all the land from the so-called ‘Germans’ which inhabit it, and send ‘foreign’ Germans back to the land they came from, those filthy immigrants.
… how much ‘compensation’ do you think modern Germany is paying out to the descendants of Holocaust survivors, again?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_Conference
The Conference continually negotiates to expand and liberalize eligibility criteria in order to include additional victims in the programs. In 1978, after 25 years of payments, the total Federal Republic of Germany compensation payments amounted to 53 billion Deutsch Marks.[7] Payments from some programs continue to this day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Restitution_Laws
The BErG/BEG deals with compensatory payments for suffered personal damage, while the BRüG covers restitutions for expropriated property. Claimants had to file their claims in order to receive payments; the term for filing claims under the BEG expired on 31 December 1969.[1]
After the fall of the German Democratic Republic and the reunification of Germany in 1990, German authorities had to wrestle with the enormous complexity of applying these laws and former GDR law in addressing property claims.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiedergutmachung
The sum would amount, through the years, to over 100 billion Deutsche Mark.
To give a ballpark, lets assume 1975 as the baseline for the inflation.
Using this calculator this is equivalent to about 172 billion Euros in todays value.
Note that this sum does not included the houses and land, that was returned to its rightful Jewish owners or their inheritors.
As for “my own land”. I don’t own any land and i have been paying rent ever since i left my parents house. If any of the landlords i paid to has stolen this land, they absolutely should pay the rightful owners.
Wiedergutmachung (German pronunciation: [viːdɐˈɡuːtˌmaxʊŋ] ⓘ; German: “compensation”, “restitution”, lit: “make good again”) refers to the reparations that the German government agreed to pay in 1953 **to the direct survivors of the Holocaust, and to those who were made to work at forced labour camps or who otherwise became victims of the Nazis. **
As of 2012, the Claims Conference had administered the following programs, which provide direct payments to Jewish victims of Nazi persecution.
The German Restitution Laws were a series of laws passed in the 1950s in West Germany regulating the restitution of lost property and the payment of damages to victims of the Nazi persecution in the period 1933 to 1945.
I ask about modern Germany paying out to descendants of Holocaust survivors, which was the claim you made, specifically, in attempting to attack Israelis born in Israel as ‘not real’, and you point me to Germany paying out money to literal Holocaust survivors. Fantastic. Definitely not bullshitting to justify deeply antisemitic ideas. Perhaps you and Elon Musk would get along well.
As for “my own land”. I don’t own any land and i have been paying rent ever since i left my parents house. If any of the landlords i paid to has stolen this land, they absolutely should pay the rightful owners.
What makes you think you have a right to benefit from renting stolen land? What makes you think that you should be allowed to reside on stolen land, colonizer? You should be shipped back to the country of your ancestors, by your own argument.
The restitution of stolen property also goes to the descendants.
The Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany, or Claims Conference, represents the world’s Jews in negotiating for compensation and restitution for victims of Nazi persecution and their heirs.
Literally the first two sentences of the linked Wikipedia article.
I find it shocking how you are wildly attacking people for pointing out facts that contradict your position.
Literally the first two sentences of the linked Wikipedia article.
I apologize for actually reading the article. Do you know what an ‘heir’ is, or do you think it’s just any descendant?
I find it shocking how you are wildly attacking people for pointing out facts that contradict your position.
And I find it shocking that you’re repeating antisemitic lines about deporting Jews to the land of their ancestors straight out of the Nazi playbook, but here we fucking are.
Again, what makes you think you have a right to benefit from renting stolen land? What makes you think that you should be allowed to reside on stolen land, colonizer? You should be shipped back to the country of your ancestors, by your own argument.
This is the innate issue with creating an ethno-state, it makes it difficult to delineate grievances between ethnicity and state. I don’t know what the solution is, but I find it understandable that some people would agree with expulsion.
Is it really ethnic cleansing when the ethno-state they built continues to genocide their neighbors with the approval of the vast majority of its citizens?
Is Israel paying for people to immigrate to Israel with the purpose of expanding the Israeli state not an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians?
I don’t think you can really say these beliefs are born out of antisemitism, not when the Israeli state purposely engages in ethnic superiority based policy.
Is it really ethnic cleansing when the ethno-state they built continues to genocide their neighbors with the approval of the vast majority of its citizens?
… yes.
Is Israel paying for people to immigrate to Israel with the purpose of expanding the Israeli state not an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians?
People immigrating to Israel, in majority Jewish Israeli areas, where the Israeli state is recognized as having jurisdiction by international law and consensus, is not fucking ethnic cleansing, no.
I don’t think you can really say these beliefs are born out of antisemitism, not when the Israeli state purposely engages in ethnic superiority based policy.
“It’s not racism if they were racist first.”
Great. Fucking fantastic. Glad we’ve learned absolutely nothing.
Fucking insanity.
… yes.
So there’s no retribution against Israel that’s not antisemitism? I mean expulsion is probably better than the alternative? What do you believe should be the response? Or do we just let a genocide continue without any consequence?
People immigrating to Israel, in majority Jewish Israeli areas, where the Israeli state is recognized as having jurisdiction by international law and consensus, is not fucking ethnic cleansing, no.
Lol, they are occupying Gaza right now… Just because the immigrants aren’t the ones moving into the Lebensraum doesn’t mean that it isn’t the states goal to expand the population to the point where they demand more living space.
“It’s not racism if they were racist first.”
My dude… My point is that people are critical of an ethno-state, which inherently creates policy based on serving that ethnicity at the expense of others. If you criticize that policy it’s not racism, it’s criticizing a government built on racism.
Is it racist against Germans to say they shouldn’t have invaded Poland, Or to kick out Germans who immigrated to Austria after they invaded? You aren’t really accounting that these are responses to a nation currently coming genocide, not just people hating an ethnicity for no particular reason.
So there’s no retribution against Israel that’s not antisemitism? I mean expulsion is probably better than the alternative? What do you believe should be the response? Or do we just let a genocide continue without any consequence?
Holy fucking shit, how is it that you are incapable of conceiving any way of punishing a government that isn’t “Ethnic cleansing” or “Genocide via murder”?!
Lol, they are occupying Gaza right now… Just because the immigrants aren’t the ones moving into the Lebensraum doesn’t mean that it isn’t the states goal to expand the population to the point where they demand more living space.
Oh, of course, that completely explains why Israelis have to be ethnically cleansed, thank you for informing me on the moral and practical necessity of genocide when it’s against Bad Ethnicity.
My dude… My point is that people are critical of an ethno-state, which inherently creates policy based on serving that ethnicity at the expense of others. If you criticize that policy it’s not racism, it’s criticizing a government built on racism.
“People are just being critical of an ethnostate when they advocate for ethnic cleansing and genocide!”
What the ever-loving fuck. You’re sitting here, not just ‘criticizing’ the horrific policies of the Israeli state, but outright advocating for the ethnic cleansing of Israel of Israeli Jews, and you have the gall to claim it’s “not racism, it’s criticizing a government built on racism”?
Is it racist against Germans to say they shouldn’t have invaded Poland,
Nice try, but that’s not what you’re saying here. If I may quote you in this very same fucking comment after it was pointed out that expelling people based on their ethnicity is actually kind of fucking horrific:
So there’s no retribution against Israel that’s not antisemitism? I mean expulsion is probably better than the alternative? What do you believe should be the response? Or do we just let a genocide continue without any consequence?
Or to kick out Germans who immigrated to Austria after they invaded?
You do realize that the entire ethnic cleansing of Germans after WW2 is a massive atrocity that occurred and a subject of intense study by historians and sociologists, right?
No, no, what am I saying? Ethnic cleansing is a good and wholesome response for the crimes of a country. That’s why Nazi Germany was justified in ethnically cleansing Alsace-Lorraine! Oh, fuck, wait, no, that’s bad. That’s why Israel was justified in ethnically cleansing Palestinians! No, wait, that’s bad too. Oh, wait, I have it! That’s why Palestine would be justified in ethnically cleansing Israel! There! GOOD ethnic cleansing to go against all that BAD ethnic cleansing!
You aren’t really accounting that these are responses to a nation currently coming genocide, not just people hating an ethnicity for no particular reason.
“Israel is committing genocide, therefore, it’s okay to genocide Israelis!”
Fucking lunacy.
Regarding 5: If you were in Argentina in the 50s, would you support a policy of “go back where you came from” to Nazi immigrants? Because setting aside the ethnic side, there’s no way the vast majority of first-generation immigrants to Israel aren’t hopelessly Zionist.
Regarding 5: If you were in Argentina in the 50s, would you support a policy of “go back where you came from” to Nazi immigrants?
No, but I would 100% support a policy of “Anyone who the Hague or Israel (ha, my enemy’s enemy) suspects of crimes of any sort gets a free ticket and a trial anytime either of them want to make a check of things.”
Once people have established roots in a place, uprooting them should only be done by proper channels or in the most extreme of circumstances. Germans in Argentina, whatever their ideological background, are not a serious threat to the polity; the polity must deal with them as it would deal with any foreign immigrants, not suddenly decide that “Bad Ethnicity” must be deported.
Much more concerning would have been the dual issues of the Argentinian government letting them in in the first place, and, for that matter, specifically assisting Nazi war criminals in obscuring their identity and escaping justice.
Because setting aside the ethnic side, there’s no way the vast majority of first-generation immigrants to Israel aren’t hopelessly Zionist
Zionist in which sense? Zionist in the sense of supporting Israel’s existence, almost certainly - Zionist in the sense of supporting the insane Greater Israel-style politics of modern colonization of Palestine and genocide, less certainly. Israeli immigrants are generally less sanguine about Palestinian genocide than native-born Israelis.
That… is fair enough.
Also you’re a racist for constantly conflating “Israeli” and “Jewish person” throughout this conversation and attempting to project that conflation on me. Thanks.
Also you’re a racist for constantly conflating “Israeli” and “Jewish person” throughout this conversation and attempting to project that conflation on me. Thanks.
Lord.
You literally have been doing that lmfao
- Ok, irrelevent, I already specified non-native citizens. Don’t bring it up again if you’re interested in intellectually honest conversation.
- Okay.
- Okay.
- Okay.
- Yes, for any country that is actively apartheid and actively trying to further solidify that apartheid by shipping in immigrants based on ethnicity.
Reminder that I asked a question to clarify whether or not my position, which is not the same as the position your meme is criticizing. So I don’t really see why you think it’s necessary to attribute that position to me.
I’ll repeat what I said specifically so you can clarify whether or not MY specific, NUANCED position is also problematic.
So, based on the new evidence, I’ll even adjust what I’m saying. Is it fair, then, to call for the relocation of dual citizens, that come from countries like the US or UK, who moved into the country as an adult after visiting Israel on their birthright trip? People who I would consider to be first generation colonizers? Forget those other people. I am not a bad faith nazi trying to get you to conflate the two groups and walk into some gotcha question. Just answer the actual question that I am posing.
Ok, irrelevent, I already specified non-native citizens. Don’t bring it up again if you’re interested in intellectually honest conversation.
Clarifying that most Israelis are native-born is absolutely relevant when discussing expulsion of non-native Israelis. People often cloak their ethnic cleansing shitheadery by implying that most Israelis are immigrants, without acknowledging that the reverse is the truth.
Yes, for any country that is actively apartheid and actively trying to further solidify that apartheid by shipping in immigrants based on ethnicity.
So when Ukraine takes back Crimea and the Donbass, you’re in support of ethnically cleansing anyone who wasn’t born there?
For a more extreme example, would you take this position for the US? There’s still an ongoing situation of unequal treatment of the Native population on reservations; surely you wouldn’t allow filthy colonizers to remain just because they were immigrants?
So, based on the new evidence, I’ll even adjust what I’m saying. Is it fair, then, to call for the relocation of dual citizens, that come from countries like the US or UK, who moved into the country as an adult after visiting Israel on their birthright trip?
No more than it would be fair to expel immigrants of any other nation based on ethnic origin. At most, I would regard extremely recent immigrants (~5 years, maybe) as negotiable in practical terms, if distasteful and a violation of the treatment of human beings equally, rather than trying to apply some insane notion of ethnic correctness to the ‘crime’ of existing.
People who I would consider to be first generation colonizers? Forget those other people. I am not a bad faith nazi trying to get you to conflate the two groups and walk into some gotcha question. Just answer the actual question that I am posing.
What would you call people who are invited in by the native-born population of a country which also run its legitimate government? Immigrants, or colonizers?
Seems like people assume that end of WW2 signaled some magic switch in European antisemitism.
Jews often couldn’t return home, because it was either destroyed or other people settled here. Some stories ended in murders of said Jews trying to return home.
Israel at that point had to happen, because nobody really cared about what happens to Jews now, and nobody really cared to bring people like Adolf Eichmann to justice.
That said, modern Israel is a fascist country. But those that doubt reasons for its very creation are absolutely misled.
Israel didn’t ‘have’ to happen at that point. Israel ‘happening’ has much more to do with Interwar politics, not WW2 - the vast majority of those present in Israel at the date of its creation were those who engaged in colonization projects during the British Mandate of Palestine, with Jewish survivors of WW2 largely not emigrating until after the state of Israel had been formed.
You can argue that the desire to escape European antisemitism was valid, but Zionism, as a project, was never all that wholesome in practical terms. From the start of the British Mandate after WW1, Zionist settlers were very clear that they envisioned their colonization in terms that European colonizers would have been familiar with - the suppression of the indigenous population under the presumption that they brought ‘real’ and racially superior civilization - even though the post-WW1 world order had become increasingly hostile to such notions even from Christian Europeans.
I do not doubt that Zionism as a project is evil, with parts that go about removing Arabs from Palestine.
But I still doubt it would succeed as it did if interwar and WW2 antisemitism spike didn’t happen (and not like it was all good pre-WW1, Russian Beilis trial as prime example).
It “had” to happen simply because everyone was keen on giving Jews ample reasons not to stay where they were chronically unsafe.
Israel at that point had to happen, because nobody really cared about what happens to Jews now, and nobody really cared to bring people like Adolf Eichmann to justice.
So you’re either woefully misinformed or defending the Nakba. Which is it?
Okay, that’s great, I already clarified my position beyond that, so I will repeat that in this conversation it is irrelevant! We can keep talking in circles about its relevance to the conversation if you like, but it seems pointless, since again, it is irrelevant to the conversation (beyond you making a point to observers I guess!)
Sorry, I am fairly ignorant to geopolitics, so can you clarify? It sounds like you are almost definitely asking me some sort of gotcha question when the answer is really clear. So are Crimea and the Donbass currently apartheid states that are intentionally bringing in immigrants of a particular race? Because if so… then yes? Like are there native citizens being displaced by the government because people of a specific ethnicity want to move there? Educate me pls
Yeah, people that are actively colonizing in America should be held under the same scrutiny lmao. You’re not going to find me to be a hypocrite. Natives that are actively being displaced by immigrants should have their land returned to them.
Based on ethnic origin? Are you really still putting words in my mouth? Are you really that incapable of honest discussion?
The crime isn’t existing, it’s actively moving to and displacing a native population by unhousing them? It’s also NOT ethnic cleansing. The rhetoric you’re using to accuse me of being pro-“ethnic cleansing” is as bad as the rhetoric used to accuse anyone calling out genocide as being anti-semitic. I’m not saying we should remove all the Jewish people from Israel. The INSTANT that I specified a subgroup with nuanced reasoning, “ethnic cleansing” stopped being a viable thing for you to argue against me with. Sorry.
Is the government actively colonizing? There’s your answer.
Sorry, I am fairly ignorant to geopolitics, so can you clarify? It sounds like you are almost definitely asking me some sort of gotcha question when the answer is really clear. So are Crimea and the Donbass currently apartheid states that are intentionally bringing in immigrants of a particular race?
Yes, the Russian government has made extensive efforts to displace Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars in the occupied territories in favor of Russian residents.
Yeah, people that are actively colonizing in America should be held under the same scrutiny lmao. You’re not going to find me to be a hypocrite. Natives that are actively being displaced by immigrants should have their land returned to them.
So you’re in favor of deporting all immigrants in America? That seems non-intuitive.
Based on ethnic origin? Are you really still putting words in my mouth? Are you really that incapable of honest discussion?
I’m sorry, are we deporting Palestinian immigrants as well? Yes, based on ethnic origin. Have you not thought out your own position?
The crime isn’t existing, it’s actively moving to and displacing a native population by unhousing them?
Which most immigrants to Israel aren’t doing, as Israel’s internationally recognized territory is overwhelmingly populated by Jewish Israelis and wherein Palestinian natives haven’t lived, largely, for generations.
It’s also NOT ethnic cleansing.
Forcibly deporting people from a region for their ethnicity is literally fucking ethnic cleansing. Just because you think it’s ‘good’ ethnic cleansing, being in response to ‘bad’ ethnic cleansing, doesn’t make it not fucking ethnic cleansing.
The rhetoric you’re using to accuse me of being pro-“ethnic cleansing” is as bad as the rhetoric used to accuse anyone calling out genocide as being anti-semitic. I’m not saying we should remove all the Jewish people from Israel. The INSTANT that I specified a subgroup with nuanced reasoning, “ethnic cleansing” stopped being a viable thing for you to argue against me with. Sorry.
“Oh, it’s only a SUBGROUP I want to ethnically cleanse! The GOOD ONES can stay!”
Christ. I guess Israel didn’t engage in ethnic cleansing either, since it let some ‘good Arabs’ stay.
Okay, so regarding your first point, I still don’t understand why you would think I would be against relocating those Russian residents? I’m not a tankie lol
I’m in favor of deporting people that are displacing other people from their homes. Do you really want to try and make the sweeping generalization that all modern immigrants in America are displacing people from their homes? Lmfao.
How many times do I need to repeat myself that I am referring to a specific subgroup that is displacing people from their homes? The ONLY reason ethnicity comes into it (for the sake of my argument anyway, I understand there are nazis out there that are using this to dogwhistle) is because the state is basing it on ethnicity. If they were actively bringing in Palestinians to displace Palestinians, then yes, we would be relocating those immigrants as well. Of course, that’s not happening, and it makes no sense to even say it.
My understanding is that the Israeli government is, or was, actively colonizing parts of Palestine. Are you saying that isn’t true? Or are you continuing to DEFEND A GROUP OF PEOPLE I’M NOT REFERRING TO?
Yeah, man, that would be ethnic cleansing. Good thing I said there is a subgroup of people!
Oh… you’re taking problem with that. Because it’s ethnic cleansing to relocate a subgroup of people, that might happen to be of the same ethnicity, based on their specific actions. For sure, man.
To compare the relocation of colonizers to the active, systemic displacement, removal, and eradication of a group of people based on their ethnicity?
You are a bad joke.
Okay, so regarding your first point, I still don’t understand why you would think I would be against relocating those Russian residents? I’m not a tankie lol
… because people are generally in agreement that mass expulsions of civilians based on ethnicity is difficult to justify morally and nearly impossible to execute humanely?
I’m in favor of deporting people that are displacing other people from their homes. Do you really want to try and make the sweeping generalization that all modern immigrants in America are displacing people from their homes? Lmfao.
I’m sorry, you’re making the sweeping generalization that all modern immigrants to Israel are displacing people from their homes. What’s the difference here, exactly?
How many times do I need to repeat myself that I am referring to a specific subgroup that is displacing people from their homes?
You specified that the people you were counting as colonizers were recent, adult immigrants to Israel from Europe.
My understanding is that the Israeli government is, or was, actively colonizing parts of Palestine. Are you saying that isn’t true? Or are you continuing to DEFEND A GROUP OF PEOPLE I’M NOT REFERRING TO?
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The people it’s colonizing Palestine with are largely native-born Israelis, not immigrants to Israel.
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Why are you advocating for deporting immigrants to Israel, from Israel, for the crime of other Israelis settling on Palestinian land?
Good thing I said there is a subgroup of people!
Alright, let me quote you:
So, based on the new evidence, I’ll even adjust what I’m saying. Is it fair, then, to call for the relocation of dual citizens, that come from countries like the US or UK, who moved into the country as an adult after visiting Israel on their birthright trip? People who I would consider to be first generation colonizers?
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