Protestants and Catholics, historically, have had a lot of conflict. In the US, Catholicism has been associated strongly with immigrant groups (Irish, Italians, and Latin Americans, primarily), which adds another layer of prejudice.

Lmao, you can oppose a genocide without advocating for US involvement, genius

Ah, the “Might makes right” interpretation of world politics, “If they can’t survive without outside help against a much larger enemy, let them die; anything is better than the dreaded Shitlibs™ doing something terrible like offering aid”

I’m sure you would’ve been an opponent of lend-lease in WW2 as well.

Only a coward would hide behind Russia in order to avoid condemning the utter depravity of the US and Israel.

Literally did condemn Israel’s genocide and the US for supporting it, but I guess that’s not important when you have Ukrainian genocide to ignore.

At least you’re not larping as a leftist anymore.

“Opposing genocide in Ukraine means you aren’t a leftist”

Yikes.

He worked with people who were willing to work with him - democrats are far less willing to negotiate than LBJ ever was.

lol

You’re literally who the meme is about.

A bonus from a recent Very Serious Leftist:

This is what no-theory does to a motherfucker. There are no ‘good guys’ in the Ukrainian war except the people of Ukraine themselves, only giant and bloated imperial states fighting over imaginary territorial lines with the unwilling sacrifice of working class blood. Tankies might object to that war because they prefer Russia to the west, but I oppose that war because the working class is forced to battle over geopolitical supremacy, and in the end will live as indentured servants to the west. The working class have everything to lose and the least to gain from that war. I have zero problem condemning that whole conflict.

No war but class war, bootlicker.

If i could give out three nobel peace prizes, the first would be to the south african delegation, the second to the doctors in gaza, and the third to the houthis. We might disagree on a lot, but i’ll join hands with anyone to fight for the right to self-determination of any people against any genocide.

Turns out anti-imperialism only counts when the group fighting against imperialism is unimpugnable - like the Houthis, and unlike Ukraine.

Sorry your favorite genocider lost, asshole.

Yeah, I’m sorry the less genocidal option lost. Sorry that you think that more genocide was preferable. You’ll get to enjoy more genocide, it’ll give you good feelies for your left-purism, I guess.

This is what no-theory does to a motherfucker. There are no ‘good guys’ in the Ukrainian war except the people of Ukraine themselves, only giant and bloated imperial states fighting over imaginary territorial lines with the unwilling sacrifice of working class blood. Tankies might object to that war because they prefer Russia to the west, but I oppose that war because the working class is forced to battle over geopolitical supremacy, and in the end will live as indentured servants to the west. The working class have everything to lose and the least to gain from that war. I have zero problem condemning that whole conflict.

No war but class war, bootlicker.

Love that you’re pro-genocide for Ukraine, but anti-genocide in Palestine. I guess Hamas is just more well-read on theory and more deserving of your support.

If i could give out three nobel peace prizes, the first would be to the south african delegation, the second to the doctors in gaza, and the third to the houthis. We might disagree on a lot, but i’ll join hands with anyone to fight for the right to self-determination of any people against any genocide.

Except Ukraine, it would seem.

I wish this was at all surprising, but you’re the perfect caricature of the kind of ‘leftist’ I was talking about. You just needed a little time to drop the mask, it would seem.

Damn, they make him sound way more based than he is.

Still sick of this blaming apathetic voters for the clear failure of the Democratic Party.

Bruh, a third of the country sat at home and did nothing as fascism, openly stated, ran to claim all levers of power in the government. If you think voter apathy isn’t a serious contribution in this issue, I don’t know what the fuck to tell you.

You had mentioned that harm mitigation trumps all moral consideration of choice. That’s short term thinking, one that has gotten us in this mess.

Sorry, am I suppose to prioritize the feelies of people who abstained over the millions of marginalized people who are going to die because of this administration?

Sorry our lives aren’t pure enough to be worth your fucking vote.

If democrats want to play chicken putting ‘their’ progressive voting base against their neoconservative principles, that is a failure on them.

This was the most left-leaning Dem platform in fucking decades.

But hey, anything to avoid responsibility for voters ushering in fascism, right?

LMFAO, get the fuck out of here with that white moderate bullshit. Are you serious?? Lol I can’t get over this. It’s like if you took MLK’s ‘the Negro’s great stumbling block’ quote and just removed the part about white moderates.

… because I point out that people who purity test themselves out of cooperating with potential allies over when minimal effort is required on their part will do the same thing when major effort is required on their part?

Fucking what?

Even he knew that the movement’s greatest hurtle wasn’t the actual-fucking KKK, but the democrats who continuously told them that ‘now is not the time’. Lmao.

Which is why he made sure to oppose LBJ, right?

Yes, both sides are bad, that’s why we’re fucking pointing it out so we can fix it.

But with zero interest in doing anything productive to fix it, of course.

What an absolute dipshit revisionist you are.

Ironic, considering that MLK, a socialist, worked with LBJ, despite the Dems being much more gruesome and despicable then.

Guess he was just too much of a shitlib to understand politics on the enlightened level you do.

Oh, did you just not understand what I was talking about? I’m pointing to your complaints about ‘bothsiders’ pointing to glaring issues within the democratic party.

Already pointed out that criticism of the Dems isn’t what’s being criticized here, but whatever you need to confirm the paranoia that I’m a Fed or a warhawk or whatever it is that you’ve got going on.

I’m also pretty sure i’ve seen you in the comments complaining about Houthi rebels and Hamas liberation groups resisting against western imperialism, which to me is a red flag for someone claiming to be anti-imperialism and anti-tankie.

Who knows, but as someone who thinks the US is particularly guilty for war and famine across the globe, even simply ‘supporting’ the war in Ukraine is gross to me.

Of fucking course. Infinite tolerance for ‘flawed’ allies until that ‘flawed’ ally is in any way linked to the dreaded shitlibs. At that point, genocide and imperialism become a matter of ‘bothsides’.

Love that you’ve spent the past half-dozen comments talking about how criticism must be allowed for, even when criticizing groups in the midst of fighting fascism, and now you’re saying being critical of Islamists is a ‘red flag’ for being “anti-imperialism and anti-tankie”

If it had anything to do with electoralism you wouldn’t be whinging about this 3 and a half years before the next election

…

First, there’s no guarantee that the next election will matter at all.

Second, the issue is much deeper - namely, the exact kind of ‘bothsides’ bullshit that leads people to abstain from siding with the less-vile choice of two in an election will certainly lead people to abstain from siding with the less-vile choice in issues of action that require something greater than an hour of a single day of their life.

Third, why the fuck would you wait until the last minute to address an issue? If there is an outstanding issue that leftists seem to believe that losing and letting marginalized groups be murdered is preferable to picking the lesser evil, why should that not be addressed immediately instead of ten seconds before the next electoral circus?

Maybe they lost because they actively avoided addressing any issues.

There are many reasons why the Dems lost. Every one of them bears some blame, and most - though not all - of them are on the party leadership.

Unfortunately, the data provided by leftists on Lemmy has been very convincing in putting forward that even a single one - namely, leftists abstaining from voting Dem over their personal issue of choice - could have saved us from fascism. Instead, those selfsame leftists chose to embrace as much genocide as possible, killing literal millions, even just at current projections.

The only war you’ve concerned yourself with is a war that has the biggest geopolitical implications.

The only war I’ve supported, not the only one I’ve concerned myself with.

I would think the genocide in gaza would at least rank, since Isreal’s imperial ambitions and actions in Gaza and the middle east are far more recent, bloody, and asymmetrical than the war in Ukraine.

I’ve expressed deep opposition to Israel’s ongoing genocide in Gaza, as well as their invasions of neighboring states.

I’ve openly stated opposition to all Israeli aid. I’ve denounced the idea that we should be allies at all with Israel, due to their horrific conduct.

As an anarchist living in American, I have a whole lot of questions for anyone who strongly cares about the Russian invasion of Ukraine but doesn’t seem to give two shits about the imperial ambitions of a western ally in the ME.

And you would be right to. Unfortunately for your argument here, that has nothing to do with me.

You present far more like a career security advisor working out of the pentagon, but I’m not conspiratorial enough to seriously think that - tho it is interesting to think about.

Lord.

“If you’re not with us, you’re against us”

That is literally what a FPTP election results in, yes. I see this is still taking time to sink in.

It isn’t because some stubborn group of progressives were making a fuss about a pet issue.

That’s funny, because I’ve had numerous ‘leftist’ posters tell me that the Dems lost because of progressives abstaining due to one pet issue or another. And what’s worse, they’ve backed their stance with data.

Is leftist some fun outfit you put on sometimes when the weather suits you? You’ve been using this account for long enough I think most of us have you pegged as a warhawk liberal, not any kind of ‘leftist’ - none I would ever care to work with, at least.

The only war that I’ve been in support of since I’ve been on Lemmy has been the war in Ukraine against Russian imperialism and genocide.

I’m extremely anti-tankie, and don’t regard harm reduction as optional, unlike some purity-obsessed posters, but if that’s what makes me a warhawk liberal in your eyes, go off, I guess.

Don’t be dense. Define ‘bothsides type’ that includes all subsets of the group you’re talking about. I’d bet pretty penny it isn’t limited to people who use the phrase ‘both sides are exactly the same’.

Those who present of all major sides of an issue to be indistinguishable because they are both flawed, with the implicit or explicit exhortation to support neither, when there are obvious and important differences between the two with one being unambiguously preferable.

I’m gonna guess this is pretty close: ‘someone who criticizes the democrats without clearly signaling their electoral support of them’

I mean, harm reduction is not morally optional, but criticizing the Dems without signaling electoral support is not inherently a “BOTHSIDES” reaction, excepting, say, in the immediate lead-up to an election of unusual importance wherein the only realistic options are fascism or the Dems.

When there is an immediate crisis coming up, wherein messaging is extremely important, and you choose to amplify messages that help fascists without bothering to amplify messages that damage fascists, it’s difficult to see that as anything except service to fascism.

Criticism of your party doesn’t ‘implicitly exhort’ support for neither, dipshit.

I never said it did?

Both parties sharing a huge, glaring problem is a pretty valid reason to engage in dissenting speech.

… okay?

That’s the fucking point. Having the disagreement is politics, but framing that disagreement as ‘opposition’ is willfully malicious and you know it.

Man, I’m not fucking talking about “Anyone who disagrees with the Dems”.

Nah, man. I know full well you’ve read MLK, don’t be the patronizing white-moderate. Both sides are shit, we should be arguing for changing that not just signing blank checks for the less objectionable one.

I don’t disagree? At the same time, when it comes down to the metal, if those are your only two choices, you have to be prepared to bite the bullet and take a side, not say “Both sides are the same!”, which is what is being criticized here (in the meme, of self-proclaimed centrists, though, given Lemmy’s makeup, the comments have predictably veered towards self-proclaimed leftists doing the same). When Nazi Germany comes a-knockin’, you side with the US, or the UK, or the USSR, regardless of what valid criticisms you have for each. Because there is a bigger enemy afoot, and there’s not an alternative option that doesn’t result in vast amounts of people living under fascism.

I’ve told people since the end of the election, if you want to start a third-party movement, now is exactly the time. Or if you want to do a revolution, now is the time to lay groundwork. Now is the time to decouple from the Dems, if you’re going to do it.

I’m not exactly a Dem partisan. I just recognized that in 2024, our realistic options were fascism or the Dems, shitty as they were, and of the two, there’s no real contest in which should have been preferable. I’m still pissed that my life is on the fucking line, not to mention the lives of millions of others, because a third of the country decided fascism was an okay alternative, since ‘both sides’ were the same. And I’m pissed that I saw that sentiment here regularly, on Lemmy, from the mouths of supposed leftists.

I’m used to hearing it from “centrists”, like in the meme. But if there’s one thing that Lemmy has taught me, it’s that while leftists might be less repugnant than the general population, we’re not actually any smarter. Just as gullible, just as senseless, just as willing to engage in feel-good politics over reality.

Guess I knew that on an intellectual level, but hadn’t accepted it emotionally before I moved here.

I’m not sure what the meme is trying to say, unfortunately.

I’m not kidding. I don’t think you could explain the thing you’re taking issue with

“I take issue with the presentation of all major sides of an issue to be indistinguishable because they are both flawed, with the implicit or explicit exhortation to support neither, when there are obvious and important differences between the two with one being unambiguously preferable, and choosing neutrality is siding with the oppressor”?

without projecting your ethical framework onto it.

What the ever-loving fuck would be describing a political issue without projecting an ethical framework onto it?

We can have a conversation about effective/acceptable methods of activism without all this bullshit posturing. Just say the thing you mean and leave the agitprop to the activists.

“‘Bothsides’ attitude is bullshit and, ultimately, right-wing bullshit”?