Ok, irrelevent, I already specified non-native citizens. Don’t bring it up again if you’re interested in intellectually honest conversation.
Clarifying that most Israelis are native-born is absolutely relevant when discussing expulsion of non-native Israelis. People often cloak their ethnic cleansing shitheadery by implying that most Israelis are immigrants, without acknowledging that the reverse is the truth.
Yes, for any country that is actively apartheid and actively trying to further solidify that apartheid by shipping in immigrants based on ethnicity.
So when Ukraine takes back Crimea and the Donbass, you’re in support of ethnically cleansing anyone who wasn’t born there?
For a more extreme example, would you take this position for the US? There’s still an ongoing situation of unequal treatment of the Native population on reservations; surely you wouldn’t allow filthy colonizers to remain just because they were immigrants?
So, based on the new evidence, I’ll even adjust what I’m saying. Is it fair, then, to call for the relocation of dual citizens, that come from countries like the US or UK, who moved into the country as an adult after visiting Israel on their birthright trip?
No more than it would be fair to expel immigrants of any other nation based on ethnic origin. At most, I would regard extremely recent immigrants (~5 years, maybe) as negotiable in practical terms, if distasteful and a violation of the treatment of human beings equally, rather than trying to apply some insane notion of ethnic correctness to the ‘crime’ of existing.
People who I would consider to be first generation colonizers? Forget those other people. I am not a bad faith nazi trying to get you to conflate the two groups and walk into some gotcha question. Just answer the actual question that I am posing.
What would you call people who are invited in by the native-born population of a country which also run its legitimate government? Immigrants, or colonizers?
Israel didn’t ‘have’ to happen at that point. Israel ‘happening’ has much more to do with Interwar politics, not WW2 - the vast majority of those present in Israel at the date of its creation were those who engaged in colonization projects during the British Mandate of Palestine, with Jewish survivors of WW2 largely not emigrating until after the state of Israel had been formed.
You can argue that the desire to escape European antisemitism was valid, but Zionism, as a project, was never all that wholesome in practical terms. From the start of the British Mandate after WW1, Zionist settlers were very clear that they envisioned their colonization in terms that European colonizers would have been familiar with - the suppression of the indigenous population under the presumption that they brought ‘real’ and racially superior civilization - even though the post-WW1 world order had become increasingly hostile to such notions even from Christian Europeans.
Israel at that point had to happen, because nobody really cared about what happens to Jews now, and nobody really cared to bring people like Adolf Eichmann to justice.
So you’re either woefully misinformed or defending the Nakba. Which is it?
Okay, that’s great, I already clarified my position beyond that, so I will repeat that in this conversation it is irrelevant! We can keep talking in circles about its relevance to the conversation if you like, but it seems pointless, since again, it is irrelevant to the conversation (beyond you making a point to observers I guess!)
Sorry, I am fairly ignorant to geopolitics, so can you clarify? It sounds like you are almost definitely asking me some sort of gotcha question when the answer is really clear. So are Crimea and the Donbass currently apartheid states that are intentionally bringing in immigrants of a particular race? Because if so… then yes? Like are there native citizens being displaced by the government because people of a specific ethnicity want to move there? Educate me pls
Yeah, people that are actively colonizing in America should be held under the same scrutiny lmao. You’re not going to find me to be a hypocrite. Natives that are actively being displaced by immigrants should have their land returned to them.
Based on ethnic origin? Are you really still putting words in my mouth? Are you really that incapable of honest discussion?
The crime isn’t existing, it’s actively moving to and displacing a native population by unhousing them? It’s also NOT ethnic cleansing. The rhetoric you’re using to accuse me of being pro-“ethnic cleansing” is as bad as the rhetoric used to accuse anyone calling out genocide as being anti-semitic. I’m not saying we should remove all the Jewish people from Israel. The INSTANT that I specified a subgroup with nuanced reasoning, “ethnic cleansing” stopped being a viable thing for you to argue against me with. Sorry.
Is the government actively colonizing? There’s your answer.
Sorry, I am fairly ignorant to geopolitics, so can you clarify? It sounds like you are almost definitely asking me some sort of gotcha question when the answer is really clear. So are Crimea and the Donbass currently apartheid states that are intentionally bringing in immigrants of a particular race?
Yes, the Russian government has made extensive efforts to displace Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars in the occupied territories in favor of Russian residents.
Yeah, people that are actively colonizing in America should be held under the same scrutiny lmao. You’re not going to find me to be a hypocrite. Natives that are actively being displaced by immigrants should have their land returned to them.
So you’re in favor of deporting all immigrants in America? That seems non-intuitive.
Based on ethnic origin? Are you really still putting words in my mouth? Are you really that incapable of honest discussion?
I’m sorry, are we deporting Palestinian immigrants as well? Yes, based on ethnic origin. Have you not thought out your own position?
The crime isn’t existing, it’s actively moving to and displacing a native population by unhousing them?
Which most immigrants to Israel aren’t doing, as Israel’s internationally recognized territory is overwhelmingly populated by Jewish Israelis and wherein Palestinian natives haven’t lived, largely, for generations.
It’s also NOT ethnic cleansing.
Forcibly deporting people from a region for their ethnicity is literally fucking ethnic cleansing. Just because you think it’s ‘good’ ethnic cleansing, being in response to ‘bad’ ethnic cleansing, doesn’t make it not fucking ethnic cleansing.
The rhetoric you’re using to accuse me of being pro-“ethnic cleansing” is as bad as the rhetoric used to accuse anyone calling out genocide as being anti-semitic. I’m not saying we should remove all the Jewish people from Israel. The INSTANT that I specified a subgroup with nuanced reasoning, “ethnic cleansing” stopped being a viable thing for you to argue against me with. Sorry.
“Oh, it’s only a SUBGROUP I want to ethnically cleanse! The GOOD ONES can stay!”
Christ. I guess Israel didn’t engage in ethnic cleansing either, since it let some ‘good Arabs’ stay.
Okay, so regarding your first point, I still don’t understand why you would think I would be against relocating those Russian residents? I’m not a tankie lol
I’m in favor of deporting people that are displacing other people from their homes. Do you really want to try and make the sweeping generalization that all modern immigrants in America are displacing people from their homes? Lmfao.
How many times do I need to repeat myself that I am referring to a specific subgroup that is displacing people from their homes? The ONLY reason ethnicity comes into it (for the sake of my argument anyway, I understand there are nazis out there that are using this to dogwhistle) is because the state is basing it on ethnicity. If they were actively bringing in Palestinians to displace Palestinians, then yes, we would be relocating those immigrants as well. Of course, that’s not happening, and it makes no sense to even say it.
My understanding is that the Israeli government is, or was, actively colonizing parts of Palestine. Are you saying that isn’t true? Or are you continuing to DEFEND A GROUP OF PEOPLE I’M NOT REFERRING TO?
Yeah, man, that would be ethnic cleansing. Good thing I said there is a subgroup of people!
Oh… you’re taking problem with that. Because it’s ethnic cleansing to relocate a subgroup of people, that might happen to be of the same ethnicity, based on their specific actions. For sure, man.
To compare the relocation of colonizers to the active, systemic displacement, removal, and eradication of a group of people based on their ethnicity?
Okay, so regarding your first point, I still don’t understand why you would think I would be against relocating those Russian residents? I’m not a tankie lol
… because people are generally in agreement that mass expulsions of civilians based on ethnicity is difficult to justify morally and nearly impossible to execute humanely?
I’m in favor of deporting people that are displacing other people from their homes. Do you really want to try and make the sweeping generalization that all modern immigrants in America are displacing people from their homes? Lmfao.
I’m sorry, you’re making the sweeping generalization that all modern immigrants to Israel are displacing people from their homes. What’s the difference here, exactly?
How many times do I need to repeat myself that I am referring to a specific subgroup that is displacing people from their homes?
You specified that the people you were counting as colonizers were recent, adult immigrants to Israel from Europe.
My understanding is that the Israeli government is, or was, actively colonizing parts of Palestine. Are you saying that isn’t true? Or are you continuing to DEFEND A GROUP OF PEOPLE I’M NOT REFERRING TO?
The people it’s colonizing Palestine with are largely native-born Israelis, not immigrants to Israel.
Why are you advocating for deporting immigrants to Israel, fromIsrael, for the crime of other Israelis settling on Palestinian land?
Good thing I said there is a subgroup of people!
Alright, let me quote you:
So, based on the new evidence, I’ll even adjust what I’m saying. Is it fair, then, to call for the relocation of dual citizens, that come from countries like the US or UK, who moved into the country as an adult after visiting Israel on their birthright trip? People who I would consider to be first generation colonizers?
But it’s not based on ethnicity, is it? It’s based on their status as a colonizer.
You’re right, I did make that sweeping generalization. Good thing I walked it back when presented with evidence and clarified a more specific position. Almost like I’m open to learning when I’m not being condescended to by some keyboard warrior.
Okay, so based on what you’re telling me now, I’ll update my opinion again. Wow, I wish you could have presented this information from the beginning instead of being a jerk that nitpicked points to argue with (and did a poor job of it btw).
So is it fair, then, to call for the relocation of Israeli colonizers living in Palestine to return to Israel? I think maybe we’re finally getting to somewhere where we can agree 😎
What’s the point of that quote? Is it because I reference birthright and therefore the people I’m referring to are ethnically Jewish? And therefore I am calling for the relocation of people based on their ethnicity? Or am I clearly calling for the relocation of colonizers, of which I had misunderstandings of where those colonizers are coming from? Hm 🤔
But it’s not based on ethnicity, is it? It’s based on their status as a colonizer.
But as mentioned, as your argument is based around deporting immigrants to Israel back to Europe on account of them being European immigrants to Israel, it absolutely is based on ethnicity.
You’re right, I did make that sweeping generalization. Good thing I walked it back when presented with evidence and clarified a more specific position. Almost like I’m open to learning when I’m not being condescended to by some keyboard warrior.
When did you walk that position back? You simply kept speaking of immigrants as ‘colonizers’ without walking back any statements before that quoted one.
Okay, so based on what you’re telling me now, I’ll update my opinion again. Wow, I wish you could have presented this information from the beginning instead of being a jerk that nitpicked points to argue with (and did a poor job of it btw).
I’m sorry that I addressed your argument as your presented it, instead of using my prophetic powers to see into the future where you’d change your argument, and addressing that instead?
So is it fair, then, to call for the relocation of Israeli colonizers living in Palestine to return to Israel? I think maybe we’re finally getting to somewhere where we can agree 😎
More fair, I would say, but more realistically I would point to the only real solution as the total cessation of Israeli government control over illegal settlements to Palestinian authorities. The ball is then in the court of the Palestinians of how they want to treat the settlements - most likely, the simple non-recognition of the legitimacy of the property ownership (and eviction if they refused to vacate property they did not legally own) would be enough to send most of them packing back to Israel. For those who stayed anyway, attempting to rent and work in the region despite the apartheid settlement being dismantled, I would argue that deportation becomes a much more fraught subject, though considering the lack of legal recognition of their entry into Palestinian territory and the likely knowledge of the unlawful nature of the settlements, less severe than ethnic cleansing usually is.
What’s the point of that quote? Is it because I reference birthright and therefore the people I’m referring to are ethnically Jewish? And therefore I am calling for the relocation of people based on their ethnicity? Or am I clearly calling for the relocation of colonizers, of which I had misunderstandings of where those colonizers are coming from? Hm 🤔
Bruh, you spent most of this comment chain defending the expulsion of ‘colonizers’ on this ground without reference to illegal settlements, and, within the context of the first few comments, quite clearly in regard to Israel as a whole, not just specific illegal settlements.
HOLY FUCK ARE YOU SERIOUS? IT’S BEEN ESTABLISHED SINCE MY SECOND COMMENT (REALLY MY FIRST COMMENT IF YOU WEREN’T BEING BONEHEADED) THAT MY POSITION IS NOT THE SAME AS THE POSITION IN THE MEME.
🙄 oh okay so we are just lying now okay. Right, I NEVER walked back my sweeping generalization and I NEVER specified further. For sure!
Right, it doesn’t take the power of foresight to recognize that someone saying “idk”, followed by a statement of position followed by a “, no?” is clearly a person asking for someone to explain what is wrong with their position. It ALSO doesn’t take the power of foresight to recognize that in my next comment, my argument was updated, and that I was clearly open to new information as it was presented. Maybe you should get a grip on your ability to perceive things that are plainly in front of you.
But I’ve also been quite transparent about my ignorance and you’ve just been treating me as a racist instead of recognizing how reasonable I was being when presented with information and my willingness to update my position? Like you’re just arguing in bad faith under the assumption I am arguing in bad faith even though it’s pretty obvious I’m not.
Clarifying that most Israelis are native-born is absolutely relevant when discussing expulsion of non-native Israelis. People often cloak their ethnic cleansing shitheadery by implying that most Israelis are immigrants, without acknowledging that the reverse is the truth.
So when Ukraine takes back Crimea and the Donbass, you’re in support of ethnically cleansing anyone who wasn’t born there?
For a more extreme example, would you take this position for the US? There’s still an ongoing situation of unequal treatment of the Native population on reservations; surely you wouldn’t allow filthy colonizers to remain just because they were immigrants?
No more than it would be fair to expel immigrants of any other nation based on ethnic origin. At most, I would regard extremely recent immigrants (~5 years, maybe) as negotiable in practical terms, if distasteful and a violation of the treatment of human beings equally, rather than trying to apply some insane notion of ethnic correctness to the ‘crime’ of existing.
What would you call people who are invited in by the native-born population of a country which also run its legitimate government? Immigrants, or colonizers?
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Israel didn’t ‘have’ to happen at that point. Israel ‘happening’ has much more to do with Interwar politics, not WW2 - the vast majority of those present in Israel at the date of its creation were those who engaged in colonization projects during the British Mandate of Palestine, with Jewish survivors of WW2 largely not emigrating until after the state of Israel had been formed.
You can argue that the desire to escape European antisemitism was valid, but Zionism, as a project, was never all that wholesome in practical terms. From the start of the British Mandate after WW1, Zionist settlers were very clear that they envisioned their colonization in terms that European colonizers would have been familiar with - the suppression of the indigenous population under the presumption that they brought ‘real’ and racially superior civilization - even though the post-WW1 world order had become increasingly hostile to such notions even from Christian Europeans.
deleted by creator
So you’re either woefully misinformed or defending the Nakba. Which is it?
Okay, that’s great, I already clarified my position beyond that, so I will repeat that in this conversation it is irrelevant! We can keep talking in circles about its relevance to the conversation if you like, but it seems pointless, since again, it is irrelevant to the conversation (beyond you making a point to observers I guess!)
Sorry, I am fairly ignorant to geopolitics, so can you clarify? It sounds like you are almost definitely asking me some sort of gotcha question when the answer is really clear. So are Crimea and the Donbass currently apartheid states that are intentionally bringing in immigrants of a particular race? Because if so… then yes? Like are there native citizens being displaced by the government because people of a specific ethnicity want to move there? Educate me pls
Yeah, people that are actively colonizing in America should be held under the same scrutiny lmao. You’re not going to find me to be a hypocrite. Natives that are actively being displaced by immigrants should have their land returned to them.
Based on ethnic origin? Are you really still putting words in my mouth? Are you really that incapable of honest discussion?
The crime isn’t existing, it’s actively moving to and displacing a native population by unhousing them? It’s also NOT ethnic cleansing. The rhetoric you’re using to accuse me of being pro-“ethnic cleansing” is as bad as the rhetoric used to accuse anyone calling out genocide as being anti-semitic. I’m not saying we should remove all the Jewish people from Israel. The INSTANT that I specified a subgroup with nuanced reasoning, “ethnic cleansing” stopped being a viable thing for you to argue against me with. Sorry.
Is the government actively colonizing? There’s your answer.
Yes, the Russian government has made extensive efforts to displace Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars in the occupied territories in favor of Russian residents.
So you’re in favor of deporting all immigrants in America? That seems non-intuitive.
I’m sorry, are we deporting Palestinian immigrants as well? Yes, based on ethnic origin. Have you not thought out your own position?
Which most immigrants to Israel aren’t doing, as Israel’s internationally recognized territory is overwhelmingly populated by Jewish Israelis and wherein Palestinian natives haven’t lived, largely, for generations.
Forcibly deporting people from a region for their ethnicity is literally fucking ethnic cleansing. Just because you think it’s ‘good’ ethnic cleansing, being in response to ‘bad’ ethnic cleansing, doesn’t make it not fucking ethnic cleansing.
“Oh, it’s only a SUBGROUP I want to ethnically cleanse! The GOOD ONES can stay!”
Christ. I guess Israel didn’t engage in ethnic cleansing either, since it let some ‘good Arabs’ stay.
Okay, so regarding your first point, I still don’t understand why you would think I would be against relocating those Russian residents? I’m not a tankie lol
I’m in favor of deporting people that are displacing other people from their homes. Do you really want to try and make the sweeping generalization that all modern immigrants in America are displacing people from their homes? Lmfao.
How many times do I need to repeat myself that I am referring to a specific subgroup that is displacing people from their homes? The ONLY reason ethnicity comes into it (for the sake of my argument anyway, I understand there are nazis out there that are using this to dogwhistle) is because the state is basing it on ethnicity. If they were actively bringing in Palestinians to displace Palestinians, then yes, we would be relocating those immigrants as well. Of course, that’s not happening, and it makes no sense to even say it.
My understanding is that the Israeli government is, or was, actively colonizing parts of Palestine. Are you saying that isn’t true? Or are you continuing to DEFEND A GROUP OF PEOPLE I’M NOT REFERRING TO?
Yeah, man, that would be ethnic cleansing. Good thing I said there is a subgroup of people!
Oh… you’re taking problem with that. Because it’s ethnic cleansing to relocate a subgroup of people, that might happen to be of the same ethnicity, based on their specific actions. For sure, man.
To compare the relocation of colonizers to the active, systemic displacement, removal, and eradication of a group of people based on their ethnicity?
You are a bad joke.
… because people are generally in agreement that mass expulsions of civilians based on ethnicity is difficult to justify morally and nearly impossible to execute humanely?
I’m sorry, you’re making the sweeping generalization that all modern immigrants to Israel are displacing people from their homes. What’s the difference here, exactly?
You specified that the people you were counting as colonizers were recent, adult immigrants to Israel from Europe.
The people it’s colonizing Palestine with are largely native-born Israelis, not immigrants to Israel.
Why are you advocating for deporting immigrants to Israel, from Israel, for the crime of other Israelis settling on Palestinian land?
Alright, let me quote you:
But it’s not based on ethnicity, is it? It’s based on their status as a colonizer.
You’re right, I did make that sweeping generalization. Good thing I walked it back when presented with evidence and clarified a more specific position. Almost like I’m open to learning when I’m not being condescended to by some keyboard warrior.
Okay, so based on what you’re telling me now, I’ll update my opinion again. Wow, I wish you could have presented this information from the beginning instead of being a jerk that nitpicked points to argue with (and did a poor job of it btw).
So is it fair, then, to call for the relocation of Israeli colonizers living in Palestine to return to Israel? I think maybe we’re finally getting to somewhere where we can agree 😎
What’s the point of that quote? Is it because I reference birthright and therefore the people I’m referring to are ethnically Jewish? And therefore I am calling for the relocation of people based on their ethnicity? Or am I clearly calling for the relocation of colonizers, of which I had misunderstandings of where those colonizers are coming from? Hm 🤔
But as mentioned, as your argument is based around deporting immigrants to Israel back to Europe on account of them being European immigrants to Israel, it absolutely is based on ethnicity.
When did you walk that position back? You simply kept speaking of immigrants as ‘colonizers’ without walking back any statements before that quoted one.
I’m sorry that I addressed your argument as your presented it, instead of using my prophetic powers to see into the future where you’d change your argument, and addressing that instead?
More fair, I would say, but more realistically I would point to the only real solution as the total cessation of Israeli government control over illegal settlements to Palestinian authorities. The ball is then in the court of the Palestinians of how they want to treat the settlements - most likely, the simple non-recognition of the legitimacy of the property ownership (and eviction if they refused to vacate property they did not legally own) would be enough to send most of them packing back to Israel. For those who stayed anyway, attempting to rent and work in the region despite the apartheid settlement being dismantled, I would argue that deportation becomes a much more fraught subject, though considering the lack of legal recognition of their entry into Palestinian territory and the likely knowledge of the unlawful nature of the settlements, less severe than ethnic cleansing usually is.
Bruh, you spent most of this comment chain defending the expulsion of ‘colonizers’ on this ground without reference to illegal settlements, and, within the context of the first few comments, quite clearly in regard to Israel as a whole, not just specific illegal settlements.
HOLY FUCK ARE YOU SERIOUS? IT’S BEEN ESTABLISHED SINCE MY SECOND COMMENT (REALLY MY FIRST COMMENT IF YOU WEREN’T BEING BONEHEADED) THAT MY POSITION IS NOT THE SAME AS THE POSITION IN THE MEME.
🙄 oh okay so we are just lying now okay. Right, I NEVER walked back my sweeping generalization and I NEVER specified further. For sure!
Right, it doesn’t take the power of foresight to recognize that someone saying “idk”, followed by a statement of position followed by a “, no?” is clearly a person asking for someone to explain what is wrong with their position. It ALSO doesn’t take the power of foresight to recognize that in my next comment, my argument was updated, and that I was clearly open to new information as it was presented. Maybe you should get a grip on your ability to perceive things that are plainly in front of you.
But I’ve also been quite transparent about my ignorance and you’ve just been treating me as a racist instead of recognizing how reasonable I was being when presented with information and my willingness to update my position? Like you’re just arguing in bad faith under the assumption I am arguing in bad faith even though it’s pretty obvious I’m not.