No, you actually can’t. There are only two sides, the occupation and the resistance. There’s no secret third option you can support to feel morally cozy and superior to the people actually fighting for their lives. You have to actually pick a side, and if you try to choose neither you just end up supporting the side with all the power i.e. Israel.
If you don’t support the resistance and their revolutionary actions, you support their extermination.
Shall we support resistance against imperialism, even if it’s a fascist one that would oppress or shall stand next to every oppressed ?
It could be a deep political split, for exemple between communists and anarchists, but not in this contexte.
Their is no way to really support arm resistance from US or Europe. But we have some ways to stop Israel support. Defending the Hamas will result in being marginalized from the mass, even if they do support Palestine, for no concrets support for any resistance.
This strategically a none-sense and just a posture
Yep I hear that catastrophic take, it’s always a shortcut to reproduce oppression. But that not the point.
What is the gain of supporting Hamas from Europe/US ? Is their weapon or training that will stop Israel ?
If yes, even if I disagree politically, I would not argue on the strategy; but it’s not.
We struggling to send foods and first help kit to civilian. We are not in the situation where this is a question.
Todays western left is more eager to pose than to act, and in this situations, when leftist say such things as “supporting arm resistance” it’s just make people turn away.
Our class is deeply concern with Palestine situation, and the first mobilisation has to be stongly repressed by the bourgeoisie in order to stop the movement to be massive. However, the repression in a lot of countries have stopped month ago, and we are a very few to go to demonstrations and actions. We have to ask why. And I think that when people mobilize against the murder of civilian, they don’t want to hear others promoting civilian murderer
The government cracked down on people protesting against Israel and so the protests stopped. That’s it. That’s the whole reason.
If our support didn’t matter they wouldn’t have proscribed Palestine Action or deported college campus occupation organizers. Our support matters, the problem is that we were defeated.
In the US and Germany, maybe. In Italy, Spain, France, and a lot more places, their is no repression anymore. Italy got massive demonstrations recently, but this is an exception and if we want to support Palestine, we have to ask ourselves why.
My point is the contradiction of trying to mobilize for peace with bellicose words. Other causes could may be found, but it seems that nobody are interested in discuss about it.
What is need of being verbose about arm resistance in the support Palestine freedom ? I pointed ou the people we lose in this support, but if I’m missing something that our support may earn, please tell me
You’re just asserting that we lose support when we express our support for Palestinian resistance, but I don’t think we do. Why do you think the “do you condemn Hamas?” ritual happens? It’s a tool to demobilize people. It’s a trick they use on you to separate you from the actual resistance and leave you alienated from the struggle.
Condemning Hamas never helps anyway. Never ever never. Every fucking time they just call you a Hamas supporter anyway. So, why bother?
Yep, of course I’m asserting. I’m speaking from my social position, and the only way I have to know if we could generalize to our class or not is to discuss about it. In another a class organization, like an union, we may see some subclass determination and see if their is different strategies for different industries.
I agree that the clever position is to not speak about hamas and arm resistance. I see many people I could convince thanks to the kind of position of Fanon, but maybe the movement will lose more people. You convince me that in this situation, “fanon” force an unnecessary split
Todays western left is more eager to pose than to act, and in this situations, when leftist say such things as “supporting arm resistance” it’s just make people turn away.
Genocide supporters aren’t people silly.
If you still didn’t understand hamas were right to fight back against their genociders you might as well be a genocide denialist. Don’t pretend to be a good person.
I don’t pretend to be a good person. I don’t care, I’m no biggot.
I’m pointing out that the representation of anti-imperialism stand is not necessarily a concrete anti-imperialist stand. Thinkinq that being verbal about a cause is supporting it, and that “being a good person” a politic goal, is not being materialist, and could not lead to concrete change.
when leftist say such things as “supporting arm resistance” it’s just make people turn away.
I’m pointing out of what we lose, and don’t find any gain for the movement. I’m trying to discuss the concrete effectiveness of our strategies. You know, being materialist and stuff
I support the resistance. I do not support all of their actions.
I support the right for Israel to exist as a sovereign state. I support almost none of their recent actions, and absolutely none of their military actions.
That you cannot hold multiple complex ideas in your head at once is a personal failing on your part. You may want simple, binary, black and white realities but they virtually never exist in reality.
Any group that is beyond reproach is immoral by definition.
Israel is a settler colony and obviously doesn’t have a right to exist. By trying to hold contradictory ideas at the same time you have ended up siding with the occupation, and you support Israel keeping the land it already stole when it was created.
Beyond being a settler colony they’ve also demonstrated their society as irredeemable. At this point? It’s obvious saying Israel has a right to exist is indistinguishable from saying Nazi Germany has a right to exist.
You only proved my point. You both sides’d yourself into supporting the Nakba.
You just ignored thousands of years of history prior to the formation of Israel, as well as the role the international community played in its formation, just to make your naive, myopic point.
So no, you haven’t proved anything but the fact that you will say whatever is easiest to push your agenda.
Okay, so he got a number a bit wrong. Does that make him criticizing Oct 7 invalid? If he had the correct number, would you be perfectly fine with the statement?
It’s fine to correct numbers, but it feels like you (and others) are using this as an excuse to target something deeper than him getting a number wrong.
I’d ask for a source on this but I know you don’t have one
Kinda sad watching the left call him an Israeli shill while the right calls him a Palestinian shill. Thus is the unfortunate lot of brown people. Ever a tool of people with an agenda.
Zohran is not the first person to be accused of malicious intent by both sides of an issue using completely opposite reasoning (both flawed) and he certainly won’t be the last. But it will always make me laugh at the stupidity of people who talk out of their ass.
You really think Zohran and however many other people from his team who wrote and proofread this statement just all had no idea what the civilian death count was? You think they just pulled whatever number came to mind without looking it up or even double checking it?
I’d say there’s an 80% chance Zohran farmed the writing out to staff and trusted them to provide him something good. And I’d say the remaining 20% is that he wrote the words himself using a fact sheet provided by staffers.
You really think politicians write their own shit if it’s longer than a tweet? You think he has time to personally fact check every statistic on every document he puts his name on?
Like, this kind of stuff happens all the fucking time.
If he uses the statistic again after this I might give him shit for it, but the rest of his position is still valid regardless.
We can denounce Israel without justifying other atrocities. Do better.
You hate genocide but you want genocidee to stay unprotected.
Also B99 is stupid copaganda.
No, you actually can’t. There are only two sides, the occupation and the resistance. There’s no secret third option you can support to feel morally cozy and superior to the people actually fighting for their lives. You have to actually pick a side, and if you try to choose neither you just end up supporting the side with all the power i.e. Israel.
If you don’t support the resistance and their revolutionary actions, you support their extermination.
Shall we support resistance against imperialism, even if it’s a fascist one that would oppress or shall stand next to every oppressed ? It could be a deep political split, for exemple between communists and anarchists, but not in this contexte.
Their is no way to really support arm resistance from US or Europe. But we have some ways to stop Israel support. Defending the Hamas will result in being marginalized from the mass, even if they do support Palestine, for no concrets support for any resistance.
This strategically a none-sense and just a posture
Ever heard of supporting the lesser evil? I bet that’s the basis for how you vote. Just apply that to geopolitics.
Yep I hear that catastrophic take, it’s always a shortcut to reproduce oppression. But that not the point.
What is the gain of supporting Hamas from Europe/US ? Is their weapon or training that will stop Israel ? If yes, even if I disagree politically, I would not argue on the strategy; but it’s not.
We struggling to send foods and first help kit to civilian. We are not in the situation where this is a question.
Todays western left is more eager to pose than to act, and in this situations, when leftist say such things as “supporting arm resistance” it’s just make people turn away.
Our class is deeply concern with Palestine situation, and the first mobilisation has to be stongly repressed by the bourgeoisie in order to stop the movement to be massive. However, the repression in a lot of countries have stopped month ago, and we are a very few to go to demonstrations and actions. We have to ask why. And I think that when people mobilize against the murder of civilian, they don’t want to hear others promoting civilian murderer
The government cracked down on people protesting against Israel and so the protests stopped. That’s it. That’s the whole reason.
If our support didn’t matter they wouldn’t have proscribed Palestine Action or deported college campus occupation organizers. Our support matters, the problem is that we were defeated.
In the US and Germany, maybe. In Italy, Spain, France, and a lot more places, their is no repression anymore. Italy got massive demonstrations recently, but this is an exception and if we want to support Palestine, we have to ask ourselves why.
My point is the contradiction of trying to mobilize for peace with bellicose words. Other causes could may be found, but it seems that nobody are interested in discuss about it.
What is need of being verbose about arm resistance in the support Palestine freedom ? I pointed ou the people we lose in this support, but if I’m missing something that our support may earn, please tell me
You’re just asserting that we lose support when we express our support for Palestinian resistance, but I don’t think we do. Why do you think the “do you condemn Hamas?” ritual happens? It’s a tool to demobilize people. It’s a trick they use on you to separate you from the actual resistance and leave you alienated from the struggle.
Condemning Hamas never helps anyway. Never ever never. Every fucking time they just call you a Hamas supporter anyway. So, why bother?
Give Zionists zero ground and never compromise.
Yep, of course I’m asserting. I’m speaking from my social position, and the only way I have to know if we could generalize to our class or not is to discuss about it. In another a class organization, like an union, we may see some subclass determination and see if their is different strategies for different industries.
I agree that the clever position is to not speak about hamas and arm resistance. I see many people I could convince thanks to the kind of position of Fanon, but maybe the movement will lose more people. You convince me that in this situation, “fanon” force an unnecessary split
Genocide supporters aren’t people silly.
If you still didn’t understand hamas were right to fight back against their genociders you might as well be a genocide denialist. Don’t pretend to be a good person.
I don’t pretend to be a good person. I don’t care, I’m no biggot.
I’m pointing out that the representation of anti-imperialism stand is not necessarily a concrete anti-imperialist stand. Thinkinq that being verbal about a cause is supporting it, and that “being a good person” a politic goal, is not being materialist, and could not lead to concrete change.
“We hate genocide but we thing the victims should stay unprotected”
Typical idealistic bullshit from first worlders
You didn’t read me. I said exactly the opposite.
You are literally saying we shouldn’t support “armed resistance”.
I’m pointing out of what we lose, and don’t find any gain for the movement. I’m trying to discuss the concrete effectiveness of our strategies. You know, being materialist and stuff
I support the resistance. I do not support all of their actions.
I support the right for Israel to exist as a sovereign state. I support almost none of their recent actions, and absolutely none of their military actions.
That you cannot hold multiple complex ideas in your head at once is a personal failing on your part. You may want simple, binary, black and white realities but they virtually never exist in reality.
Any group that is beyond reproach is immoral by definition.
Once again: Do better.
Really? Why? You know they stole their land yes?
Israel is a settler colony and obviously doesn’t have a right to exist. By trying to hold contradictory ideas at the same time you have ended up siding with the occupation, and you support Israel keeping the land it already stole when it was created.
Beyond being a settler colony they’ve also demonstrated their society as irredeemable. At this point? It’s obvious saying Israel has a right to exist is indistinguishable from saying Nazi Germany has a right to exist.
You only proved my point. You both sides’d yourself into supporting the Nakba.
You just ignored thousands of years of history prior to the formation of Israel, as well as the role the international community played in its formation, just to make your naive, myopic point.
So no, you haven’t proved anything but the fact that you will say whatever is easiest to push your agenda.
Peace out ✌️
Ah yes israelis have the right to exist because abraham lived there 5000 years ago
Israel is a fucking crusader state, but you won’t acknowledge that thousand years of history because its inconvenient.
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Good lord, why did you insufferable losers even leave Reddit?
We can denounce Israel without denouncing the resistance. Do better.
Did I denounce the resistance? No, I denounced you. And murder.
Weird hill to die on
Zoran is including the IDF soldiers killed in his supposed war crime statistic. And you are defending it.
Okay, so he got a number a bit wrong. Does that make him criticizing Oct 7 invalid? If he had the correct number, would you be perfectly fine with the statement?
It’s fine to correct numbers, but it feels like you (and others) are using this as an excuse to target something deeper than him getting a number wrong.
He didn’t “get it a bit wrong”. He gave the number including Israeli soldiers in purpose.
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You’re being deliberately obtuse and you know it.
You’re being deliberately pedantic so that you can perform your moral superiority routine.
I’d ask for a source on this but I know you don’t have one
Kinda sad watching the left call him an Israeli shill while the right calls him a Palestinian shill. Thus is the unfortunate lot of brown people. Ever a tool of people with an agenda.
Zohran is not the first person to be accused of malicious intent by both sides of an issue using completely opposite reasoning (both flawed) and he certainly won’t be the last. But it will always make me laugh at the stupidity of people who talk out of their ass.
You really think Zohran and however many other people from his team who wrote and proofread this statement just all had no idea what the civilian death count was? You think they just pulled whatever number came to mind without looking it up or even double checking it?
I’d say there’s an 80% chance Zohran farmed the writing out to staff and trusted them to provide him something good. And I’d say the remaining 20% is that he wrote the words himself using a fact sheet provided by staffers.
You really think politicians write their own shit if it’s longer than a tweet? You think he has time to personally fact check every statistic on every document he puts his name on?
Like, this kind of stuff happens all the fucking time.
If he uses the statistic again after this I might give him shit for it, but the rest of his position is still valid regardless.
Partially. The reply to his tweet still fully stands. But including IDF soldiers as victims makes it way worse.