A friend approached me confidently about realtionship advice and its a tough thing to address. What better place than to ask Lemmy given the broad scope of culture and more genuine reactions here. We figure what can it hurt.
Background:
A couple in my friend group have been together for 3 or 4 years who really seem to love each other looking in from the outside, are having some tension.
The lady doesn’t input the same effort for planning life events, making any sort of weekend plans or after work activities. It’s always the guy picking all the slack up and managing problems. Budgeting and making sure everything is in order. He cooks, does the cleaning, and generally does the relationship thinking as a whole. That is not to say there isn’t some input from his partner, it seems she’s very indecisive from how he describes when making plans or any sort of choices like where to eat or what to do during a problem of any magnitude, almost stress outburst behaviour from her. Defensive type lashing out against him.
He wants to know some advices on how to rebalance the effort scale and to generally improve the dynamic as she seems to be shutting him out according to him. It’s always been imbalanced in effort since the beginning he said but they are good together. They want to make it work but the stress and tension is building to unhealthy levels from what I understand as in he’s ready to break up. They don’t fight really but there’s some definite underlying issues, when he tries to talk about it or anything emotional derived she says things like she doesn’t know, doesn’t know how to explain the way she feels at all and says her mind is sort of blank and that is how he describes most of their deep talks. He described to me that their communication as he’s a very involved communicator and she can go off and be unresponsive or completely not answer questions he asks like they don’t exist.
There’s tension between them she’s snappy more often than not and deals with severe depression/anxiety. Hates her job. Is always in a negative mindset. While he is usually more upbeat and postive not bubbly but hopeful.
I’ve seen him have hard days and be tense and snarky as well who hasnt had a rough day? To me it just isnt like her where she always generally has smart comments towards anything. She’s not what I would say is an uptight removed but almost anything can ruin her mood.
I’m likely missing some points here it’s not my relationship nor am I good at these things but I’m trying so be easy on me here. The only thing I can tell is they genuinely seem to love each other. Sex life is imbalanced he has a high drive and her very low as in can go months then sometimes 1 to 4 times a month. They did get hormone testing but everything appears normal. Worth noting he said she sleeps excessively like after work all through the night most days. They no longer talk as much or text during the day. Where that used to be more common. He did mention she has a male coworker she works with daily that they are fairly close he is unsure of in-fidelity but they meet for work at his apartment every morning apparently it’s easier since they share a work vehicle. I was told that he wanted to quit in a rush a few months ago and they had an argument because he was about to leave and she irrationally seemed to want to quit with him. At the very least their very emotionally tied. It may be nothing he said.
She told him she doesn’t feel any different in the relationship for the way she views them when asked.
But just doesn’t show attention anymore when he gets upset her response will be Boohoo or similar.
Personally I believe she’s burned out and has anxiety on top of horrible depression but I have no real clue how to address that for them. It’s such a personal topic.
Lemmy give them some of your best advices they used to be so full of life and laughter. Thank you all! If I missed anything or any specific questions just ask. We both are excited to see what comes of this.
Edit and UPDATE: They have started to talk again after being silent yesterday all day and have decided to take the week to each write a long and well thought out letter from each of sorts that address how their thinking individually, how they view each other, concerns to address, and ways to meet on level ground to try to form and maintain structure during times of stressful interactions rather than both going in defense and bring more hate into the relationship.
She said she wants to try to speak with her doctor about mental health problems including ADHD, anxiety, depression, and also wants to learn to take time to focus on activities that she derives happiness from or did before the shutdown aspect (art most likely is my understanding but only she knows I suppose) and to spend less time sleeping. They are going to remain talking throughout the week casually it seems and plan to swap letters and have an more formal discussion at the weeks end.
If I hear more, I will update this and keep the help and advice good or bad coming!
This does sound like she has depression, and needs to address that before working on the relationship.
If it was not so obvious, I would have said she’s checked out of the relationship, but reading the whole post, I don’t think that’s it, it’s more like she’s just checked out of life in general, so I will hope she gets help and finds her energy and libido and joy again.
Then they can work out a schedule to balance the effort. Some of our “rules” are:
If I cook and you eat, you clean, and vice versa.
We make the bed together.
If the toilet paper runs out replace it!
If the dogs or cats need water, fill it!
Outdoors I do everything (garden, weeding, flowerbeds out front) except mowing and edging, husband does those.
I make all design decisions for the house because I have a better eye, husband makes all vacation plans because he’s good at that.
I’m sure there’s a million ways to set things up to leverage individual strengths and talents and still be balanced enough but none will work without commitment from both people, you do have to want it.
As someone who’s been going through what I believe to be autistic burnout for many years now, this third hand description of her behaviour feels very similar that what my own experience probably looks like from the outside.
Needing a lot of extra sleep is one of the symptoms. Depression, anxiety and being generally in a bad mood often also comes with burnout. She’s putting no effort into events or activities, possibly because she doesn’t want those activities or events in the first place due to the energy drain. Not knowing how you feel (and just bad interoception in general) is a very common trait of autism. You mentioned in a comment that she’s “quiet and shy”, which is another point towards the autism hypothesis.
Keep in mind that this is based on my own experience only. There isn’t enough information to know if your friend is going through the same thing or not. Assuming she is, the solution is probably to work on that interoception and figuring out how different activities/events affect your energy levels. There’s a good chance that if you had all your coping mechanisms figured out before entering the relationship, they don’t work anymore after because some things clash with the expectations of the relationship. For many of them, you probably wouldn’t even know they were coping mechanisms to begin with. They were things you just did because you prefer it that way and had no idea how bad things can get if you didn’t. So part of the work is in figuring out which of your habits are coping mechanisms.
I’m unsure in the autism aspect but I guess my thought of autism is more of the severe type. This should be diagnosed and handled by a medical professional to truly know. What are some coping mechanisms that work in general perhaps to try? I know everyone is different she is artistic I do know that.
Autism presents very differently from one person to the next. Most of the literature so far has been on young boys, so there’s a very poor understanding among most mental health professionals and the general population on how it looks in adult men, let alone women. On top of that, women tend to be much better at hiding it.
As for coping mechanisms, I can’t give specific examples since, as you say, everyone is different. This is especially true for autism since there’s such a wide range of special interests, sensory sensitivities/preferences, etc. that you can easily find two people where the good and bad categories are complete opposites. You’ll often hear advice such as “engage in your special interest” (assuming one exists), “stick to your comfort foods”, or “minimize masking”. These are very broad suggestions, but it’s the best we can give. There’s a lot of work involved in figuring out what that means for you. For sensory preferences, there are resources online that list different things to consider. Look up “sensory preferences checklist” to find them. For masking, you’ll have to learn what is and isn’t masking. That involves understanding how non-autistic people think, what they’re capable of doing without thinking, then comparing it against the amount of effort you put into doing the same thing. For example, neurotypicals don’t need to think about what facial expressions to make because their faces just naturally do the thing in accordance to their emotional state. If you find that you need to consciously think about what face to make based on how you feel, then that’s masking and would be a contributing factor to the constant exhaustion.
I did a little research for my own understanding and there’s a lot to this. It’s very personal preference of sorts. While I don’t think I have autism personally, I hate visual noise, clutter, things need to be symmetrical and slight OCD. So I think there is learning for everyone can be had!
I believe the coping mechanisms can be improved. Just because something doesn’t directly apply doesn’t mean you can’t benefit from the advice. I do exactly what you described above constantly. Having to think about what and how to react for facial expressions and body language. That is tiring mentally analyzing all the time. Like being stuck in a certain mode.
I emplore everyone to do a little research into some of the aspects you pointed out above to explore those topics. Whether your autistic or not these principles and strategies could help nearly anyone to dial in there focus and mind.
She needs therapy and not just to keep the relationship. She’s not well. If she’s unwilling to work on herself though, I don’t see a bright future.
I agree 100 percent.
She has agreed to speak to her doctor about several mental health issues. I posted an update above from what I’ve learned today so far. I’ll keep them coming.
That sounds like a start. I wish them both the best of luck.
I know. The response from fellow Lemminites has been pretty spectacular overall. Definitely helped to gain ideas and to gain a different perspective from the outside. I hope it works out for them. Time will tell. Thanks for participating!
It takes two to tango.
The defensive lashing out type stuff happens because he hasn’t established firm boundaries around it. And she’s probably lashing out about stuff because… Well. Doesn’t matter, really.
There need to be firm boundaries about how to have a discussion that apply evenly to both of them. Both of them need to buy into these rules. When the lines are crossed the discussion ends.
This isn’t about shutting down a discussion but having the awareness to recognize constructive versus destructive discussions.
Setting reasonable, adult boundaries and rules, sticking to them, and establishing that certain behaviours are problematic are the only way this gets better.
If she’s unable to recognize her own defensiven ss as a problem and work on it all of this falls apart but having the framework in place will allow transparency into the why of it.
I totally agree with this overall statement. He’s very sharp and focused she’s very flowing sort of lazier, don’t care as much.
Fundamentally there’s differences but part of what I see or understand from him talking it out with me was that rather than having this type of structure that’s needed it’s almost as if she is defensive so he’s defensive and then it sort of kept going like this for a long long time and thus has escalated into deeper rifting issues. Structure is what’s needed
I’m going to show him this and some other replies and I really think this post was constructive and helpful. Due to the cultural and social dynamics of Lemmy some points have been brought up that we never considered. As enshittified as the internet/world has become and the fediverse isn’t perfect there’s some real genuine reactions like the old forum days.
No one teaches you how to have a relationship. So people just kind of default into patterns that are often toxic.
It’s why taking a step back and being deliberate about how to communicate is so important. There needs to be a shared understanding and deliberateness about how to intentionally communicate.
And it needs to be something that applies equally to everyone involved. No copouts, no special circumstances that only go one way, there need to be firm, hard rules with specific consequences that apply evenly to all involved that are arrived at communally, and not unilaterally.
I agree especially on the last couple paragraphs. She has a tendency to not stick with things and has very low self discipline, accountability, and general drive to do anything. Maybe even esteem issues.
But I’m just hoping that what their trying to convey and share in a safe setting will change the course atleast to a more healthy dynamic because they both seem honestly beyond burned out. I see this as make or break them. Beyond that if she gets to a doctor and they can try to treat her mental health depression and anxiety I think that will play a big factor.
Thanks for taking the time to reply and add your perspective. This is why we decided to make the post and just see how people with different values and backgrounds might have different input.
No problem.
I’ll add one other thing: Others have mentioned couples therapy. This is a great idea. Even if the relationship is already over, worst case scenario is they both gain some insight into their own toxic behavioural patterns to make their next relationship better.
Sounds like the relationship is over and neither of them has admitted it yet.
Marriage is more than just “k well bye”. I didn’t see anything in there about counseling or trying to repair the relationship. I recommend trying something over nothing.
oh maybe read about ‘partner of adhd spouse’
when i read about having an adhd spouse it was comical because all the tough situations they described were just my life and it sounds similar to this. my wife was so overwhelmed she couldn’t function and she needed like 10 hours a day of sleep. And she had no idea why until we pieced it together and she got diagnosed.
‘balance’ definitely part of my complaints though so maybe check it out!
Not only are they going to read it but I am too. I’m ADHD and have been diagnosed years ago from multiple Drs of mine. They both have it as well but it manifests in different ways due to their natural personality differences. Thanks!
Step 1: get both parties to agree there’s an imbalance.
If you can’t get to this point, no other advice matters
She agrees it’s wildly imbalanced and wants to change/ feels horrible and she told him he deserves better. He said she tries hard for a day or two then drops the ball and returns to old ways.
Cool. Now it’s just getting her to come up with different options that are based on her unique characteristics. Not everyone is made for planning. Not everyone is made for coordination. Not everyone is made for todo lists. She needs to bring her wholeself - he needs to contribute his special powers to supporting her developing her special powers and vice versa.
lol, both parties agreeing does mostly nothing. It’s a nice step, and maybe even necessary for them to stay together, but with “no other advice matters”, you vastly overstate how important this realization is. You can easily agree on this and everything can not work out anyway.
You misunderstood the words. You can agree on this and fail to resolve. But you can not disagree on this and resolve. And that was the point
I’m pretty sure I didn’t misunderstand the words. You literally said “no other advice matters”. I.e. this is the only thing that’s important. That’s quite clearly false, you just admitted it yourself.
It is actually possible to resolve without this. There’s so many resolutions that don’t involve both parties agreeing.
no, you misunderstood. “no other advice matters” does not mean “the most important” in this case but that its a necessary condition for any resolution.
You think it’s possible to solve this problem without both parties agreeing that it’s a problem. I disagree with you.
This seems like it’s mapping. They both agree there’s this issue of equality in the relationship but perhaps they just aren’t a true fit like they thought. Maybe all good things come to an end. I didn’t want to jump to saying this because I don’t want to be that guy.
Just because this is not literally the most important thing, doesn’t mean the relationship is necessarily doomed.
But one thing I believe very strongly is that a relationship only works when both people are fine with leaving each other under certain circumstances. If leaving is such a big hurdle that you accept lots of misery instead of it, something is fucked. That’s why I hate marriage and the whole “until death do us part” thinking. If you can’t leave someone, you’re basically saying “I’m fine with you doing the most horrible things to me”. Leaving should always theoretically be on the table. People treat leaving or the end of a relationship as this super horrible thing, but in actuality everyone knows that sometimes it’s absolutely the right course of action.
To me, it doesn’t seem like their relationship necessarily needs to come to an end. From what you have said of course. With more details, this might change. But I can still see lots of paths that could lead to them staying together.
Communication, as always, is key. They need to have serious proper conversations, she needs to be told pretty much everything in this post. If she is unable to communicate properly then they should try resolve whatever underlying problem is causing that (via therapy or a doctor visit or whatever). But ultimately without open communication, there is no relationship.
Sounds like her depression/anxiety is the root of problem. Has she talked to a doctor, other than getting hormones checked? Was she always like this, or has something changed lately?
Its always been sort of like this even as a teen but after college friends kind of parted ways and everyone’s lives took off that it’s really only them her hobbies got left behind and all the work realization of a lifetime of 40 hour week dynamic just crashed her further.
He thinks it’s depression/anxiety a lot too and she took therapy that she said helped to vent and just talk outside of them but she’s almost just shutdown sort of. To me it’s like she’s maxed out internally and auto pilot is running on fumes. So she sleeps excessive after work and that’s about it.
I’m not a doctor, but this sounds like a medical issue. I hope she can get the correct diagnosis and treatment.
There is 2 ways really: your friend needs to leave, or he needs to be fine with the imbalance, winding down as much as is necessary.
She’s not going to change unless things stop working for her. It’s a simple reality of the human mind. That doesn’t mean it’s guaranteed she will change, she might not.
Option 1, the real threat of him leaving will cause huge issues within her. She will either change to keep him, or fall into more misery. Both are very possible.
Option 2, him stopping to care, and (likely) toning down his involvement is the harder option for him. With toning down I mean, maybe just cook for himself, maybe just clean whatever is absolutely important to him and his own dirt, masturbate more, do less “relationship thinking”. Do everything necessary down to a level that he is actually comfortable with. You can actually be completely fine in an uneven relationship, it’s mostly a mindset thing. Of course being with someone else might be better, which is leaving again. I’m poly, so I’ve got that covered anyway, they seem monogamous, so no other people to fill the gaps without leaving, in my relationships everyone does just as much as they want and gets everything else they need from other people, which works perfectly. But that is likely not an option here.
So yeah, him toning down his involvement will also result in missing comfort for her (like leaving would, option 1), which will either cause her to change to more even involvement, or feel even more bad and lead to option 1 again.Your friend can’t control what his wife does. He can only control what he does and get comfortable with how his wife is. In my opinion, this whole situation from what you said is pretty much his fault, and not hers, as you’ve said this inequality has been like this from the beginning. He knew what he was getting into, she doesn’t seem to have misled him or changed majorly. He should’ve either never entered/deepened this relationship or have been truly fine with the inequality, if he was, there would be no problems now.
He just responded that he is trying to pull back a little and see how she responds they haven’t talked since yesterday even though she sent him a message today about an errand she wanted him to do. He wants to fall back but is so emotionally attached that it’s hard not to go back and just keep eating the problem until burn out again. U guess torn you could say. Love is a wild emotion is all I have to say.
Do you think he should go totally dark on contact until she comes around to wanting to talk or how should he approach? To me it seems like he’s a bit overly hopeful or sees the good in people too much. Which is why I struggled to offer help and advice.
If it was my friend, I would ask him what he would do if he was absolutely sure that his wife will never change. And then tell him that this is what he should do, because 1. in my opinion it is toxic to be in a relationship and expect the other person to change and 2. her not changing is the most likely outcome, people do change, but they always resist it very much, and often that resistance is too great.
His response was if he could be poly with her he thinks it would work out where his sex drive being high and hers really low that he could get his needs filled and she’s very quiet and shy that he needs more social interaction the scale could balance out and they can still have love and enjoy one another when they both want to on each their own time. They are monogamous. She would definitely have an issue with that.
As far as the toxic aspect he said he does think it’s sort of toxic to want her to change but he feels her being so severely dreoessed and anxious it’s for the better. Not to turn her into someone else but to re-ignite her life and enjoyment again. He wants to be less harsh about it on a day to day basis but told me she won’t do anything if he doesn’t stay on about it until it’s done. To me that seems uhh understanding and also messed up like she needs to learn adulting for herself. I hadn’t previously had that info that he was sort of always pushing her daily. He had just told me he could ask a a question or a few and she wouldn’t even respond as if she thought about it but from his view it didn’t exist. Kind of wild to think about from my view.
Personally I don’t think she will change. He wants to fall back cease contact as much a possible for a week or a month and just give her space to see what comes of it all.
he was sort of always pushing her daily.
This is exactly what it sounded like. Glad you’ve got this information, now I’ve got more things to say.
What he’s doing comes from a perfectly nice and helpful place. He actually sees her behavior hurt herself and wants to help her hurt less.
But you should never “help” someone in this way. It’s the worst thing he can possibly do, it actually only makes things worse.
The only way you can help people is by being there for them and assisting them on their own path. In other words, the only way you can be a positive force is by letting them do whatever the fuck they want, and helping them with that. If “whatever the fuck they want” does not include “getting out of the depression” and “getting rid of anxiety”, then there’s literally nothing you can do. If you try to get them to do actions that you think might be good for them, even if they actually were good for them if they wanted to do them, if they don’t want to do them by themselves all you’re doing is just making them feel worse for “being wrong”.
It might even be the case that she wants to get out of depression or get rid of her anxiety, but she’s taking the wrong actions for it. And he may be trying to get her to do “better actions”, that actually accomplish what was set out to do. Even that doesn’t work. She has to get to the “better actions” herself. You can maybe ask questions, or point out that the “current action” doesn’t seem to be working, but the idea to change her actions has to come from herself.
That is the only way people change. People change by their own will, or they don’t. As another person, you can basically just be with them and watch. Anything much more and you’re starting to fuck things up more instead of help.
but told me she won’t do anything if he doesn’t stay on about it until it’s done
Then she should be doing nothing. He should be doing his own thing. She either comes out of it by herself, or doesn’t. “Staying on about it” gets things done, but it also makes them both more miserable.
I’m not even sure it was helping as much as it was riding her ass to get shit done. Like banking stuff or typical life things.
So they haven’t talked since yesterday basically she messaged him today but it was about an errand and be didn’t respond.
He thinks it’s best to fall silent and wait it out maybe for a week or a month I guess time is arbitrary. Basically until she comes back to him with something of substance and is at a place where they can talk it out. I’m sure they could talk it out if he initiated but it wouldn’t be as fruitful and allow her time to think on the situation as a whole. Do you think the silent approach is good or? If he tries to initiate a deep conversation she sort of rejects it like ughh sigh type vibe.
Edit: Second question. How do you deal with someone completely glossing over important questions as if they don’t exist? And carries in with some random topic.
As long as it is clearly communicated by him what he’s doing and why, any approach is fine really. So as long as he tells her his exact purpose of the break and what he needs to stop it, all good.
If that is not done, and it’s just a one-sided decision of his to stop talking, not even explaining anything, then it is very bad. It’d basically be like a parent punishing their child and not telling them what for, mentally very problematic. Of course it should be able to be implied by her in some way, but it’s very easy to come to the wrong conclusions.
Second question, you simply don’t let them. You calmly keep repeating your question, pointing out their intentional ignoring, stating that you will only talk with them about anything else after this question is answered, until they either get so mad as to run away, or they respond to it. But you have to actually stay strong, and not allow them to do it. Depending on other things that need to be communicated, and how stubborn they are, that will hurt yourself as well as them since other important stuff for you might not get communicated. But that is something that needs to be tolerated, because breaking from the original intention is worse for the future, it shows that ignoring the question works, and they’ll repeat it.
If it was as simple as communication issues and her not fully reciprocating in the relationship, that would be one thing. But she’s in clear need of therapy. Unless she’s willing to seek help, she’s slowly sinking them.
Whether or not she is having an affair, which isn’t something there seems to be any concrete proof for, he does seem to be looking for an out. She also seems done. This relationship is already over.
To tack on this. She definitely needs therapy, classic trauma-based coping mechanisms, and the depression may be because of that or exacerbating that. I’d also say, due to natural biases, that we may not have as much negative info on him, but that’s okay.
I think he’s almost done and she’s either almost done or done. Probably the best option is to get out sooner with a little less drama and take some lessons from this. The alternative is to keep trying to fix it until all feeling is gone, then break up with a nicely burned bridge in the background.
I agree with the natural bias aspect and they are trying to work on it. I edited an update shortly ago on what they have come to today. He’s concerned im sure they both are about the burned bridge part as well. Let me know what you think of the update!
I saw your edit and I’m honestly impressed with the positive shift toward healthy communication and planning to take action on her part.
The letter writing was a good idea, and I read the other replies about him giving distance to her. As for the suggestion of her possibly having autism, I think that’s on her to figure out through her doctor. I wouldn’t outright tell her that.
After a week of writing letters, maybe they could transition to having daily talks about anything on each other’s minds. And being sure to ask “why?”, because some people listen well but never ask questions. It helps both people. Other than that, so long as she carries through with getting to the doctor and communication keeps strong, things will likely work out fine. Definitely make a new post if there’s any huge updates on this
Neither of us mentioned any autism or anything, that wasn’t for he nor I to discuss really. I’d leave that for the medical professionals. That being said she is willing to talk to her doctor about the anxiety and severe depression. I’m glad to see that they are going to take the week as individuals to really encompass their thoughts, feelings, kind of a tell all, no hold backs, no judgements type single written letter over the entire week then they planned to get together next weekend and read them to each other out loud and discuss in hopefully a sensible manner.
I think that’s a big win considering they were at each others throats when it came to talking about anything past casual banter. Basically they weren’t talking for weeks hardly at this point months even. It is really a good example of both sides understanding the serious nature and the time for clear concise communication to set a better path hopefully moving forward. He told her that this is make or break and not to instill stress but to show where he’s at ahead of the letters so both parties know the nature and that it’s not a gimmick.
They have done these discussions in the past. My only concern I’ve seen from them or heard rather is that she has a tendency to fall back into old patterns extremely easily and to not stick with the plan but he made a list several excercises and therapy sessions to try privately amongst themselves that promote trust, empathy, even going as far as positive reinforcements.
My only concern is the follow through and if they both don’t approach and commit then I see it best to simply part ways on good terms. Before the burned bridge aspect then things get dramatic and sometimes nasty. Nobody wants that.
Your friend is in a relationship while your friends SO is not.
I know and it’s so disheartening that is why I don’t know what to tell him other than it’s heart breaking ending love but I kind of think it might be the best bet. They currently haven’t spoke today since an argument last night. She wanted to use him to complete an a long errand and he refused until they have a couple day to relax and reset. She got mad and he thought it best to go silent until she figures out her end. It almost seems like she will apologize but it’s manipulative because she will go back to the same pattern he said.
I think the fundamental truth here is that any relationship requires conscious effort from both parties. One person alone can’t carry that weight. If your friend wants to salvage this relationship then I think they need to convince their partner to pursue individual therapy, and also they need to talk to a couples counselor together. Without professional help I think it’s going to be very difficult to shift the dynamic here. That being said, life is short, and you can waste years hoping that someone will change. Sometimes you have to make the hard choice to move on.
This relationship is already over. They should break up and meet new people
It’s often tempting to say “this X is screwed, let’s start all over again”. But deep relationships are not formed that way.
Between any people, there will be points of tension, and if this calls you to quit, you risk never to get to the point of stable long-lasting relationships.
May it be that they need to break up? Yes. Does it have to be? No.
Seems to me the forming of a deep relationship is not possible if one of the two does not wish to put in the energy required
Your friend should move on with his life, rather than committing to unending misery.
