We used to think that most animals lacked those things as well.
Plants very well may have some kind of consciousness or will, it’s just one that is so different from our own as to be unrecognizable with our current understanding.
Personally, I acknowledge that predation is a part of the ecosystem, and that it is not morally wrong to be a predator (Nobody thinks that falcons or bobcats are immoral for existing in the ecosystem the way that they do. I don’t think that should be different for humans). I do believe it is morally wrong to treat an animal poorly in advance of its demise though, so my policy on food is that I will eat animals and animal products if I believe that the animal that provided said food lived/is living a life that is as good as or better than it’s wild relatives, provided the practice is environmentally sustainable. So I eat a mostly vegan diet, but I also sometimes eat eggs from people’s well treated pet poultry or pasture raised chickens, and I eat seafood that the monterey bay aquarium says is sustainable. On rare occasions I will eat pasture raised poultry or hunted meat. I don’t do any dairy or farmed red meat because of the greenhouse gasses associated with their production.
I think it’s important for us to hunt deer in most of north america because we eliminated their primary natural predator from the ecosystem and they overpopulate to the point of being harmful to the environment without wolves in their ecosystem.
Yeah, domestication was reciprocal. You see a creature into the world, care and provide for it and, eventually, see it out of the world.
You can frame it in spiritual terms, or as a symbiotic relationship that evolved over time. But however you put it, factory farming is a violation of that pact.
Under your rules we can morally eat people in comas.
Ah, I agree! If fruits and vegetables deserve moral consideration because they “want to live,” then coma patients, clearly not demonstrating any ambition, are demonstrably and ethically fair game. I mean, they’re just lying there, right? No subjective experiences, taking up valuable hospital space and depleting emotional energy while not contributing anything… a head of cabbage with a Medicare plan.
I will not debate plant sentience. If you erroneously believe in and care about plant sentience, you should go vegan, by eating them directly far fewer plants are murdered.
Ok. So anything that doesn’t have a subjective experience of existence is morally fine to eat.
Nope. Didn’t say that either. You were the one hallucinating a carrots will.
Yes, but the point about minimizing plant deaths by eating plants instead of feeding more plants to animals and then eating the animals is a valid one…
Nowhere, not necessarily. But you did invalidate another person’s feelings of empathy by telling them to “go to the doctor” for it, which is pretty shitty behavior
Let’s not pretend that person really cares for carrots or has empathy for them. And if you feel that inanimate objects do have a will, then you should see a doctor, as I imagine that is highly debilitating. Not an insult, but sad that genuine advice is seen that way.
Then you should go see a doctor. Plants don’t have “a will”. You need sentience and a subjective experience of existence for that.
We used to think that most animals lacked those things as well.
Plants very well may have some kind of consciousness or will, it’s just one that is so different from our own as to be unrecognizable with our current understanding.
Personally, I acknowledge that predation is a part of the ecosystem, and that it is not morally wrong to be a predator (Nobody thinks that falcons or bobcats are immoral for existing in the ecosystem the way that they do. I don’t think that should be different for humans). I do believe it is morally wrong to treat an animal poorly in advance of its demise though, so my policy on food is that I will eat animals and animal products if I believe that the animal that provided said food lived/is living a life that is as good as or better than it’s wild relatives, provided the practice is environmentally sustainable. So I eat a mostly vegan diet, but I also sometimes eat eggs from people’s well treated pet poultry or pasture raised chickens, and I eat seafood that the monterey bay aquarium says is sustainable. On rare occasions I will eat pasture raised poultry or hunted meat. I don’t do any dairy or farmed red meat because of the greenhouse gasses associated with their production.
I think it’s important for us to hunt deer in most of north america because we eliminated their primary natural predator from the ecosystem and they overpopulate to the point of being harmful to the environment without wolves in their ecosystem.
Yeah, domestication was reciprocal. You see a creature into the world, care and provide for it and, eventually, see it out of the world.
You can frame it in spiritual terms, or as a symbiotic relationship that evolved over time. But however you put it, factory farming is a violation of that pact.
Says you. They certainly have a will to reproduce, get sunlight, get water.
Ok. So anything that doesn’t have a subjective experience of existence is morally fine to eat.
Under your rules we can morally eat people in comas.
Ah, I agree! If fruits and vegetables deserve moral consideration because they “want to live,” then coma patients, clearly not demonstrating any ambition, are demonstrably and ethically fair game. I mean, they’re just lying there, right? No subjective experiences, taking up valuable hospital space and depleting emotional energy while not contributing anything… a head of cabbage with a Medicare plan.
Waste not, want not.
I will not debate plant sentience. If you erroneously believe in and care about plant sentience, you should go vegan, by eating them directly far fewer plants are murdered.
Nope. Didn’t say that either. You were the one hallucinating a carrots will.
If people bring up vegetarianism in an empathy debate then no-one can stop me empathising with the carrot.
Yes, but the point about minimizing plant deaths by eating plants instead of feeding more plants to animals and then eating the animals is a valid one…
Yes. Gping further. If you really want to minimise plant deaths then you remove all animals (including humans).
My main point is that empathy and it’s focus depends very much on the individual. Empathy is a strong emotional argument but a weak logical one.
Empathy is what you feel; not what the object of your empathy feels
Where did I claim that this is not the case?
Nowhere, not necessarily. But you did invalidate another person’s feelings of empathy by telling them to “go to the doctor” for it, which is pretty shitty behavior
Please read again.
Let’s not pretend that person really cares for carrots or has empathy for them. And if you feel that inanimate objects do have a will, then you should see a doctor, as I imagine that is highly debilitating. Not an insult, but sad that genuine advice is seen that way.
You should try having some empathy.