Let me just start by saying that the overwhelming majority of victims from Israel’s genocidal warfare are innocent civilians, many of which are children.
However, the other side of belligerents in this conflict is Hamas, who are unequivocally terrorists. Yes, Israel’s oppression of the Palestinian people has pushed a lot of people towards Hamas, and yes, Israel has made sure that Hamas has received ample funding and support as a way to weaken the Palestinian Authority, but that doesn’t make Hamas less bad.
Hamas hasn’t just terrorized, kidnapped, raped, and murdered Israeli civilians, they have waged a campaign of oppression and terror against the Palestinian people in order to remain in power. They are a symptom of the national, regional, and geopolitical situation that exists in that region, but they are horrible nonetheless.
Hamas hasn’t just terrorized, kidnapped, raped, and murdered Israeli civilians
Doing atrocity propaganda in favour of Israel is bad. There has been no mass rape of “Israeli”, that’s Hasbara propaganda. Palestine has a right to defend itself from the worst atrocity of the 21st century.
I agree, obviously. I think when people try to “both sides” this, as it seems, they’re not talking about victims of genocide. Hamas, as the Palestinian leadership in Gaza, have been receiving literal briefcases of money from Israel for years; you can’t call them [the governmental and especially military organization] victims of Israel.
Not being victims doesn’t make them automatically bad. You might argue that armed resistance is necessary to oppose occupation and ethnic cleansing, and that’s a legitimate point. I’d say that Hamas, in this case, being the lesser evil, is still an evil, but it doesn’t only exist to be evil: it exists to fight the bigger evil. Perhaps there’s a not-evil way to fight the occupying power, I don’t know. But what Hamas (& other resistance organizations) have been doing is definitely not working for them. Some might say that it’s backfired massively1.
It depends on how you choose to view this conflict. It can be a conflict of Israel against Palestine (or Israel against Gaza), and in this dichotomic view, the moral option is obviously supporting the Palestinians, Hamas included. But this view doesn’t necessarily represent reality. It can also be a conflict between people who want peace2 between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, and those who don’t, on whichever “side” they happen to be. In this case, it’s imperative to support (actual, not fake) humanitarian foundations in Gaza, and organizations in Israel trying to fight this from within, but oppose escalation in armed conflict. By this view, the conflict is of Israel as a country (a government and military), not a nation, and Hamas as a military, not a representative of the Palestinians, against the Palestinian population3.
My point is that this thread is just arguing over terminology. There is a genocide, we oppose the people facilitating the genocide, and we support the victims. It doesn’t get much more complicated.
Footnotes (yes I used footnotes in a lemmy comment):
1: The one doing the genocide is obviously Israel. Blaming Hamas for bringing this on their own people is disingenuous, but on the other hand, you can’t say that they didn’t know this was going to happen, especially with this Israeli government.
2: Peace is complicated, but for a start we can consider people who oppose genocide, ethnic cleansing, military occupation, and illegal settlements. The optimal solution is the one-state solution, which not everyone accepts, but you work with what you have.
3: There is some effect on the Israeli population, though it’s negligible compared to genocide. Both Israel and Hamas have to maintain some level of support within their respective population, but Israel being way more powerful and the support threshold for Hamas being lower result in a relatively smaller impact on the Israeli population.
What kind of future does that boy have under his current leadership. What kind of opportunities does Palestine provide these children and what is their stated goals as a government around this conflict again?
When Palestine is freed from genocide, occupation and apartheid, it will be free to democratically decide what to do with itself. You probably understand Zelensky not carrying out elections during a comparatively “mild” invasion (yes, sad, but not an overt genocide), what are Palestinians supposed to do? Maybe the fault of who’s the only faction capable of resistance is of the oppressors murdering hundreds of thousands?
The ethnic cleansing of Ukraine is absolutely a genocide, what are you talking about? They’re kidnapping the children and sending them to be raised by Russian families, they’re destroying the cultural and religious monuments and changing the national language. How is that not genocide?
Comparing the ratio of civilian/children to soldier casualties of the Ukraine war with essentially any other war in which an industrialized nation has engaged in for the past half a century it gets obvious that Russia’s objective is not the elimination of Ukrainians as an ethnicity unless we apply that standard for US involvement in Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan… (which I consider atrocious but not genocidal). It is a war of invasion, but not a genocide.
Ukrainian children being kidnapped are isolated instances, not a mass occurrence, no serious journalistic job proves otherwise other than claims from the Ukrainian administration, which has obvious reasons for doing atrocity propaganda.
These accusations of children/women being hurt are levied in every western involvement as we saw with Nayirah’s Testimony which the west took at face value and turned out to be a psyop to sway public opinion doing atrocity propaganda against Iraq.
I’m in favour of condemning all instances of Ukrainian children being relocated to Russia and I’d arguably consider most of those a war crime, but there’s a step between that and taking Ukrainian administration claims of tens of thousands (when the independently confirmed numbers hover the hundreds or few thousands if I’m not mistaken) and making accusations of genocide.
Using the word “genocide” lightly to describe every western geopolitical enemy is dangerous towards victims of blatant genocide such as Palestinians, at risk of losing the weight of the war.
The Russian Ministry of Defense admits 307,000 children were illegally forced from their homes in Ukraine and relocated to Russia. That is not ‘isolated incidents’, and it’s why the ICC has an arrest warrant issued for Vladimir Putin.
Those children are being reeducated and raised as Russians. That is not a normal wartime practice, it’s a Hallmark of genocide.
What ratio of soldier to civilian casualties is necessary for a genocide? I wasn’t aware of this metric.
It’s not just about the children, the areas being conquered are having their culture and history stripped away and destroyed, the language is being changed to Russian; the goal is the destruction of the Ukrainian ethnic identity, this is not the same as other conflicts you named.
The Russian Ministry of Defense admits 307,000 children were illegally forced from their homes in Ukraine and relocated to Russia
Those numbers are ridiculous and blatant Russian propaganda. Taking the Russian Ministry of Defense claims at face value is absurd, and if I’m not mistaken this isn’t even an official communiqué but just something a higher up of the organization said. Unless you truly believe that Russia had killed 1mn Ukrainian soldiers by 2023, you shouldn’t believe the number of kidnapped children claim.
What ratio of soldier to civilian casualties is necessary for a genocide?
There isn’t a final answer but obviously extreme numbers on one either of the ratio are relevant (i.e. 600k Palestinian civilians murdered by “Israel” since Oct 2023 with about half of them being children out of a population of a few million people in Gaza point towards genocide, the case for Ukraine doesn’t point to that direction with estimates not usually exceeding the 20k civilians dead since Feb 2022, with military deaths probably above a few hundreds of thousands).
It’s not just about the children, the areas being conquered are having their culture and history stripped away and destroyed, the language is being changed to Russian
Since 2014 the Ukrainian government was shelling Donbas during the Ukrainian civil war, and in some regions with a majority of self-defined Russians Russian was forbidden. Russia argues that this was a genocide of Russians through war and erasure of language and Russian culture with Russian icons being demolished too. Genocide of Russians is the justification of Russia to invade Ukraine. I don’t take these accusations of genocide that seriously either because of the same reasons I don’t believe Russia is genociding Ukrainians, I believe it’s a political tool to turn your population against a geopolitical enemy. That’s why I want to base this discussion on independent journalistic work instead of accusations from one government to the other
I mean your side uses these corny propaganda pictures like the average observer hasn’t been watching for 40+ years: show the pictures of rockets launching from crowded markets and backfiring on friendly civilians 🤣🤣🤣
Good. I just hope you are correct. Their government has been using them as pawns. In a very similar fashion to how you use them for upvotes 🤣 if you leave the Palestinian people in the hands of Hamas they will never be free. I hold both leaderships accountable for the bloodshed. They all need to be replaced. Most of them have been clinging to power due to this conflict. It’s hard to ignore the video evidence of non stop offensive rocket strikes for the last 40 years. Lots of great hits to revisit. It’s not like either side has been peaceful. They are both bad, and the Palestinian people suffer the most because of it. Ignoring half of their suffering is insufferable
Don’t “both sides” genocide. The victims are not less bad, because they are not bad in the first place.
It’s a deliberate strategy. They can’t say they support the genocide anymore but they can still push the idea that it was sorta deserved
Let me just start by saying that the overwhelming majority of victims from Israel’s genocidal warfare are innocent civilians, many of which are children.
However, the other side of belligerents in this conflict is Hamas, who are unequivocally terrorists. Yes, Israel’s oppression of the Palestinian people has pushed a lot of people towards Hamas, and yes, Israel has made sure that Hamas has received ample funding and support as a way to weaken the Palestinian Authority, but that doesn’t make Hamas less bad.
Hamas hasn’t just terrorized, kidnapped, raped, and murdered Israeli civilians, they have waged a campaign of oppression and terror against the Palestinian people in order to remain in power. They are a symptom of the national, regional, and geopolitical situation that exists in that region, but they are horrible nonetheless.
Genociders deserve to be terrorised.
Doing atrocity propaganda in favour of Israel is bad. There has been no mass rape of “Israeli”, that’s Hasbara propaganda. Palestine has a right to defend itself from the worst atrocity of the 21st century.
I agree, obviously. I think when people try to “both sides” this, as it seems, they’re not talking about victims of genocide. Hamas, as the Palestinian leadership in Gaza, have been receiving literal briefcases of money from Israel for years; you can’t call them [the governmental and especially military organization] victims of Israel.
Not being victims doesn’t make them automatically bad. You might argue that armed resistance is necessary to oppose occupation and ethnic cleansing, and that’s a legitimate point. I’d say that Hamas, in this case, being the lesser evil, is still an evil, but it doesn’t only exist to be evil: it exists to fight the bigger evil. Perhaps there’s a not-evil way to fight the occupying power, I don’t know. But what Hamas (& other resistance organizations) have been doing is definitely not working for them. Some might say that it’s backfired massively1.
It depends on how you choose to view this conflict. It can be a conflict of Israel against Palestine (or Israel against Gaza), and in this dichotomic view, the moral option is obviously supporting the Palestinians, Hamas included. But this view doesn’t necessarily represent reality. It can also be a conflict between people who want peace2 between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, and those who don’t, on whichever “side” they happen to be. In this case, it’s imperative to support (actual, not fake) humanitarian foundations in Gaza, and organizations in Israel trying to fight this from within, but oppose escalation in armed conflict. By this view, the conflict is of Israel as a country (a government and military), not a nation, and Hamas as a military, not a representative of the Palestinians, against the Palestinian population3.
My point is that this thread is just arguing over terminology. There is a genocide, we oppose the people facilitating the genocide, and we support the victims. It doesn’t get much more complicated.
Footnotes (yes I used footnotes in a lemmy comment):
1: The one doing the genocide is obviously Israel. Blaming Hamas for bringing this on their own people is disingenuous, but on the other hand, you can’t say that they didn’t know this was going to happen, especially with this Israeli government.
2: Peace is complicated, but for a start we can consider people who oppose genocide, ethnic cleansing, military occupation, and illegal settlements. The optimal solution is the one-state solution, which not everyone accepts, but you work with what you have.
3: There is some effect on the Israeli population, though it’s negligible compared to genocide. Both Israel and Hamas have to maintain some level of support within their respective population, but Israel being way more powerful and the support threshold for Hamas being lower result in a relatively smaller impact on the Israeli population.
Is there only one side?
What kind of future does that boy have under his current leadership. What kind of opportunities does Palestine provide these children and what is their stated goals as a government around this conflict again?
When Palestine is freed from genocide, occupation and apartheid, it will be free to democratically decide what to do with itself. You probably understand Zelensky not carrying out elections during a comparatively “mild” invasion (yes, sad, but not an overt genocide), what are Palestinians supposed to do? Maybe the fault of who’s the only faction capable of resistance is of the oppressors murdering hundreds of thousands?
The ethnic cleansing of Ukraine is absolutely a genocide, what are you talking about? They’re kidnapping the children and sending them to be raised by Russian families, they’re destroying the cultural and religious monuments and changing the national language. How is that not genocide?
Comparing the ratio of civilian/children to soldier casualties of the Ukraine war with essentially any other war in which an industrialized nation has engaged in for the past half a century it gets obvious that Russia’s objective is not the elimination of Ukrainians as an ethnicity unless we apply that standard for US involvement in Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan… (which I consider atrocious but not genocidal). It is a war of invasion, but not a genocide.
Ukrainian children being kidnapped are isolated instances, not a mass occurrence, no serious journalistic job proves otherwise other than claims from the Ukrainian administration, which has obvious reasons for doing atrocity propaganda.
These accusations of children/women being hurt are levied in every western involvement as we saw with Nayirah’s Testimony which the west took at face value and turned out to be a psyop to sway public opinion doing atrocity propaganda against Iraq.
I’m in favour of condemning all instances of Ukrainian children being relocated to Russia and I’d arguably consider most of those a war crime, but there’s a step between that and taking Ukrainian administration claims of tens of thousands (when the independently confirmed numbers hover the hundreds or few thousands if I’m not mistaken) and making accusations of genocide.
Using the word “genocide” lightly to describe every western geopolitical enemy is dangerous towards victims of blatant genocide such as Palestinians, at risk of losing the weight of the war.
The Russian Ministry of Defense admits 307,000 children were illegally forced from their homes in Ukraine and relocated to Russia. That is not ‘isolated incidents’, and it’s why the ICC has an arrest warrant issued for Vladimir Putin.
Those children are being reeducated and raised as Russians. That is not a normal wartime practice, it’s a Hallmark of genocide.
What ratio of soldier to civilian casualties is necessary for a genocide? I wasn’t aware of this metric.
It’s not just about the children, the areas being conquered are having their culture and history stripped away and destroyed, the language is being changed to Russian; the goal is the destruction of the Ukrainian ethnic identity, this is not the same as other conflicts you named.
Those numbers are ridiculous and blatant Russian propaganda. Taking the Russian Ministry of Defense claims at face value is absurd, and if I’m not mistaken this isn’t even an official communiqué but just something a higher up of the organization said. Unless you truly believe that Russia had killed 1mn Ukrainian soldiers by 2023, you shouldn’t believe the number of kidnapped children claim.
There isn’t a final answer but obviously extreme numbers on one either of the ratio are relevant (i.e. 600k Palestinian civilians murdered by “Israel” since Oct 2023 with about half of them being children out of a population of a few million people in Gaza point towards genocide, the case for Ukraine doesn’t point to that direction with estimates not usually exceeding the 20k civilians dead since Feb 2022, with military deaths probably above a few hundreds of thousands).
Since 2014 the Ukrainian government was shelling Donbas during the Ukrainian civil war, and in some regions with a majority of self-defined Russians Russian was forbidden. Russia argues that this was a genocide of Russians through war and erasure of language and Russian culture with Russian icons being demolished too. Genocide of Russians is the justification of Russia to invade Ukraine. I don’t take these accusations of genocide that seriously either because of the same reasons I don’t believe Russia is genociding Ukrainians, I believe it’s a political tool to turn your population against a geopolitical enemy. That’s why I want to base this discussion on independent journalistic work instead of accusations from one government to the other
Do you think the genocide of Palestinians began with the invasion of Gaza in 2023?
I think the genocide of Gazans intensified in 2023, but no, I think it’s been ongoing for almost a century at this point. Why?
I like to watch the people watch the rocket launching, if they don’t move fast enough they get hit by counter battery. Truly awful 🤣
You are a disgusting example of a human being. You should be instabanned for spewing shit like that.
I mean your side uses these corny propaganda pictures like the average observer hasn’t been watching for 40+ years: show the pictures of rockets launching from crowded markets and backfiring on friendly civilians 🤣🤣🤣
Heartless zionazi, “Israel” has already lost and will disintegrate over the following decades. Palestine will be free
Good. I just hope you are correct. Their government has been using them as pawns. In a very similar fashion to how you use them for upvotes 🤣 if you leave the Palestinian people in the hands of Hamas they will never be free. I hold both leaderships accountable for the bloodshed. They all need to be replaced. Most of them have been clinging to power due to this conflict. It’s hard to ignore the video evidence of non stop offensive rocket strikes for the last 40 years. Lots of great hits to revisit. It’s not like either side has been peaceful. They are both bad, and the Palestinian people suffer the most because of it. Ignoring half of their suffering is insufferable
Removed by mod
Yeah, but we do get riled by ableist slurs.
Your instance is lead by genocide supporter. One of the ex-mod confirmed recieving propaganda from israeli mail account.
Good liberals are always more shocked by mean words than litteral attrocities
In that case I guess slurs are okay? I don’t follow your reasoning.
I’n saying you should worry about more important thing. See how i responded to a litteral fascist and you came at me for using forbidden word.
Neolibs like to do performative things like banning plastic straw and pretending to care about gays