Are you kidding me? Half my objection is that we’re apparently supposed to accept half measures (or no measures) now in the name of appeasement.
“The party that literally lost the election is trying to compromise with the party that won the election” should not be a fucking surprise to anyone who pays fucking attention to politics since the inception of parties or elections.
There are plenty of good ways to kick out Dems who are insufficient in opposition. Letting fascists win is not one of them.
Remember all that talk of trans rights on the campaign trail? Me neither. Remember all that talk of limiting Israel? Me neither.
What the fuck does that have to do with the opposition being literal fascists who should’ve been kept out of power?
Now, one of us is linking examples of his grievances which you are ignoring, and the other is using a lot of confrontational language but offering nothing but anger and personal attacks. I have to admit after seeing you around I expected better.
Your examples of grievances are… Dems infighting with progressives.
That justifies letting fucking fascists win?
That’s what we’re fucking discussing, here.
THAT’S not a vote I’ll be making again though.
That’s fucking you, right there, discussing casting a vote for a flawed neolib empty suit against a literal, open, fucking fascist.
What the fuck does that have to do with the opposition being literal fascists who should’ve been kept out of power?
Remember this?
Sorry for not considering my life and the lives of numerous people I love,
I’ve got people who I love too. I’ve also got people who I don’t love, but who I’m just friends with.
Your examples of grievances are… Dems infighting with progressives.
My examples are that if we can hold Dems accountable for anything at all (which apparently we can’t without really, really pissing some people off) I’d think it would at least be for allowing the continuous rightward shift of the overton window, which they have actively promoted over the course of my entire adult life by their continuous fighting against progressive elements of their own party while simultaneously appeasing conservatives. I don’t really see how that could be any clearer, but I’m sure you’ll reply angrily about some unrelated thing, or otherwise impugn my intelligence, memory, or integrity. (or block me for not kowtowing)
They have dangled the “but the Republicans really can’t win this time” in front of us for decades. And yet, the exact same Republican threat (but worse!) exists the next time. Every time.
And I agree about the presence of that threat. I disagree that fighting against progressive politicians and their policies will do anything but continue to enable it.
“The party that literally lost the election is trying to compromise with the party that won the election”
Also, during Kamala’s campaign they were the party in power. They still sold themselves to R instead of D.
That justifies letting fucking fascists win?
Sorry for all the edits.
So here is the crux of our disagreement.
They are going to get my vote in 2026. They can have that by default, and they will need it to have a chance in 2028.
But, you find it unreasonable that I just want them, in the next 3.5 years, to give me a reason to vote for them that is NOT derived from how bad R is? That’s just a bridge too far for me to ask of my elected representatives?
I’ve got people who I love too. I’ve also got people who I don’t love, but who I’m just friends with.
Okay? Did letting the fascists win help them more than the alternative, or hurt them more than the alternative?
I await with baited breath your answer. /s
I’m fucking disabled. I have relatives who are undocumented. Neither party is going to represent my interests adequately. But I still recognize which is going to be fucking worse.
My examples are that if we can hold Dems accountable for anything at all (which apparently we can’t without really, really pissing some people off) I’d think it would at least be for allowing the continuous rightward shift of the overton window, which they have actively promoted over the course of my entire adult life by their continuous fighting against progressive elements of their own party while simultaneously appeasing conservatives.
Holy fucking shit, are you kidding me?
You said you’ve been voting Dem for 40 years. If that’s true, then you should be acutely aware of just how far left the Dems have come since the height of neolib lunacy in the 1990s.
I don’t really see how that could be any clearer, but I’m sure you’ll reply angrily about some unrelated thing, or otherwise impugn my intelligence, memory, or integrity. (or block me for not kowtowing)
You don’t see how… a demonstrably untrue point that you did not previously express… could be any clearer.
Okay.
They have dangled the “but the Republicans really can’t win this time” in front of us for decades. And yet, the exact same Republican threat (but worse!) exists the next time. Every time.
HW was a step back from Reagan. McCain and Romney from Bush.
And I agree about the presence of that threat. I disagree that fighting against progressive politicians and their policies will do anything but continue to enable it.
In case you missed my last edit (which is understandable):
That justifies letting fucking fascists win?
Sorry for all the edits.
So here is the crux of our disagreement.
They are going to get my vote in 2026. They can have that by default, and they will need it to have a chance in 2028.
But, you find it unreasonable that I just want them, in the next 3.5 years, to give me a reason to vote for them that is NOT derived from how bad R is? That’s just a bridge too far for me to ask of my elected representatives?
First, that it presumes that them not giving you a reason to vote for them that doesn’t sum up to “Literal fascists are bad” is, itself, a reason not to vote for them.
It is fucking not.
Votes are not a love letter. They are a strategic decision about the future of the country, made as one voice in an ocean of voices, few of whom are in total agreement with you. And if your decision ends up “Well, literal fascism is really bad… but I don’t think I’ve been woo’d enough by the non-fascists”, then you are putting a stamp of apathetic approval on fascism murdering large numbers of disadvantaged groups because of some bizarre sense of political vanity.
That is not a moral choice. It is not a reasonable choice. It’s not much more than saying that the lives of minorities are worth less than your feelings. Yes, including those that you love, and those that you are friends with.
Second, it is not unreasonable to want more out of your representatives. But it is also important to recognize how and when to get more out of your representatives. For example, building a credible third-party or interest group, or primarying some dipshit neoliberal’s ass out. Both of those require extensive groundwork.
Part of the issue, I think, is that the ultra-fucked FPTP system of the US which has led us to our two-party system has simultaneously robbed any opposition to the two parties of any sense of coalition-building or bargaining. Hence the spate of perennial four-year ‘also-ran’ presidential candidates we have to deal with.
Third, the presidency, in particular, has accumulated a wealth of unreasonable powers. Beyond questions of policy, it is vital to keep the presidency out of the hands of literal fascists because it is precisely the branch which they can do the most damage with. If the fascists had gained the House and Senate, and maintained the judiciary, we would still be at far less risk had we had some empty fucking neolib suit in the White House. Sinking a Dem Senator or Rep is far less concerning, in this light, than sinking a Dem presidency.
Fourth, despite the constant claims of speaking for the people, progressives have shown, time and time again, that we do not have the votes to win elections on our own in this fucking country. Most of the country is not as left-leaning as you or I. We have a lot of fucking work to do before “Listen to us or else!” is anything but a threat to let literal fucking fascists win.
Which means, ugly as it is, we need to be in coalition with the fucking neolibs. Primary their asses, by all means. But if the general election comes down to a Republican president or a Dem president, you better fucking be voting blue even if it’s some goddamn ghoul like Pelosi. Having the country return the more right-wing option does not signal to anyone that they should go left; it signals that the country desires to go further right, and both parties will respond as such.
And if your decision ends up “Well, literal fascism is really bad… but I don’t think I’ve been woo’d enough by the non-fascists”, then you are putting a stamp of apathetic approval on fascism murdering large numbers of disadvantaged groups because of some bizarre sense of political vanity.
Why do you keep reducing my argument down to things like the above?
What I want is for this to stop happening:
Second, it is not unreasonable to want more out of your representatives.
Thanks!
the presidency, in particular, has accumulated a wealth of unreasonable powers.
Agreed!
Beyond questions of policy, it is vital to keep the presidency out of the hands of literal fascists because it is precisely the branch which they can do the most damage with.
Great! Can we agree that it’s the fault of Democratic leadership and their strategies that the Fascists got the Presidency, or is it only the fault of the voters? (And need I remind you yet again, I voted Kamala in 2024.)
than sinking a Dem presidency.
Who is talking about sinking a Dem presidency? Other people can make whatever decision they like. My vote belongs to no one by default anymore.
Why? Because when R went full on Hitler what did D do at the very next presidential election? Did Kamala pull to the left in her campaign? No. It was the same tired shit that they used to justify working against Bernie, the same tired shit Pelosi uses to justify working against any progressive at all, the same reason we still have almost no one but boomers in positions of substantial power within the party. Democrats are just as blind to how the nation has changed since WWII as Republicans are, or they are are just as reluctant to embrace it.
And, it’s not YOUR job to convince me I’ve got them all wrong. It’s THEIRS.
Fourth, despite the constant claims of speaking for the people, progressives have shown, time and time again, that we do not have the votes to win elections on our own in this fucking country. Most of the country is not as left-leaning as you or I.
My vote is mine. It’s not yours or anyone else’s. If they don’t want it, that’s OK. But if they do, they need to act like it.
Why do you keep reducing my argument down to things like the above?
What I want is for this to stop happening:
And why the fuck do you think that handing victory to the GOP will stop that from happening?
Why do you think it will do anything except accelerate that, assuming that graph is true (it is, quite demonstrably, not).
Great! Can we agree that it’s the fault of Democratic leadership and their strategies that the Fascists got the Presidency
They bear a good deal of the blame.
Who is talking about sinking a Dem presidency? Other people can make whatever decision they like. My vote belongs to no one by default anymore.
You are. You are literally talking about the prospect of not voting for a Dem against literal fucking Nazis.
Why? Because when R went full on Hitler what did D do at the very next presidential election? Did Kamala pull to the left in her campaign? No.
…
… why would the GOP going full fascist turn the Dems left?
There’s not some magic balance or pendulum in politics. The Dems aim for what demographics they think will give them a winning coalition. The country, not having moved dramatically left in the past 4 years, was not going to result in a dramatically more left Dem platform since 2020.
It was the same tired shit that they used to justify working against Bernie, the same tired shit Pelosi uses to justify working against any progressive at all
What.
And, it’s not YOUR job to convince me I’ve got them all wrong. It’s THEIRS.
Oh, you’re absolutely right, it’s not my job as a citizen to convince anyone not to endorse my death. After all. Blue Circus didn’t earn my life.
Treating this like some kind of fucking sports team is exactly why politics in this country is so fucked. You embrace the same idiotic bullshit of politics as spectacle that’s core to fascism, because, apparently, you don’t make the connections between what happens in government and what happens here in the real fucking world.
My vote is mine. It’s not yours or anyone else’s. If they don’t want it, that’s OK. But if they do, they need to act like it.
Your vote is your’s. And all the consequences of what you vote for, or fail to vote against, is also your’s.
If the lives of your loved ones aren’t worth a Blue Circus that doesn’t entertain you enough, I can’t stop you from endorsing fascism and genocide.
But I will absolutely condemn you for it, with what time I have left.
If you choose to allow fascism next election because the ‘shitlibs’ haven’t been entertaining enough, every ounce of blood that results that could’ve been prevented is on your fucking hands.
Well it seemed like this was becoming an actual conversation where you responded to what I was saying instead of whatever you are reading into things. This is about as much as I feel like dealing with in the way of rudeness right now, so have a good one.
So we all voted Kamala, and we all think the Dems are fucking up again and we can’t let the literal fucking fascists win.
What are we arguing about again? Is it simply “Dems, with notable or temporary exception are not doing enough and they need to”?
If we’re all on board with the duty to vote and barring some miracle third party candidate we’ll be voting Dem, I think we could get more substantive criticism out there.
I guess when I see “Dems suck” or “don’t blame the voters” I think its an argument against voting which we saw a lot of, or “Harris was terrible” which I (very surprisingly) disagree with.
I’m sorry that clearly fucking stating my issues and outlining the logic that leads to the invariable conclusion is ‘reading into things’, and I’m sorry that being fucking pissed that, even after it’s been pointed out numerous times, that you’re treating the lives of marginalized groups in the US, including my fucking life, as a ‘prize’ that needs to be ‘won’ by the Blue fucking Circus before your holy hand will deign to vote against our murder on your fucking ballot. I understand that my tone is making you uncomfortable, when you would prefer asspats for endorsing my death. Agree to disagree, right? It’s nothing major. Just another game to play and then go home safe and snug every night.
“The party that literally lost the election is trying to compromise with the party that won the election” should not be a fucking surprise to anyone who pays fucking attention to politics since the inception of parties or elections.
There are plenty of good ways to kick out Dems who are insufficient in opposition. Letting fascists win is not one of them.
What the fuck does that have to do with the opposition being literal fascists who should’ve been kept out of power?
Your examples of grievances are… Dems infighting with progressives.
That justifies letting fucking fascists win?
That’s what we’re fucking discussing, here.
That’s fucking you, right there, discussing casting a vote for a flawed neolib empty suit against a literal, open, fucking fascist.
Remember this?
I’ve got people who I love too. I’ve also got people who I don’t love, but who I’m just friends with.
My examples are that if we can hold Dems accountable for anything at all (which apparently we can’t without really, really pissing some people off) I’d think it would at least be for allowing the continuous rightward shift of the overton window, which they have actively promoted over the course of my entire adult life by their continuous fighting against progressive elements of their own party while simultaneously appeasing conservatives. I don’t really see how that could be any clearer, but I’m sure you’ll reply angrily about some unrelated thing, or otherwise impugn my intelligence, memory, or integrity. (or block me for not kowtowing)
They have dangled the “but the Republicans really can’t win this time” in front of us for decades. And yet, the exact same Republican threat (but worse!) exists the next time. Every time.
And I agree about the presence of that threat. I disagree that fighting against progressive politicians and their policies will do anything but continue to enable it.
Also, during Kamala’s campaign they were the party in power. They still sold themselves to R instead of D.
Sorry for all the edits.
So here is the crux of our disagreement.
They are going to get my vote in 2026. They can have that by default, and they will need it to have a chance in 2028.
But, you find it unreasonable that I just want them, in the next 3.5 years, to give me a reason to vote for them that is NOT derived from how bad R is? That’s just a bridge too far for me to ask of my elected representatives?
Okay? Did letting the fascists win help them more than the alternative, or hurt them more than the alternative?
I await with baited breath your answer. /s
I’m fucking disabled. I have relatives who are undocumented. Neither party is going to represent my interests adequately. But I still recognize which is going to be fucking worse.
Holy fucking shit, are you kidding me?
You said you’ve been voting Dem for 40 years. If that’s true, then you should be acutely aware of just how far left the Dems have come since the height of neolib lunacy in the 1990s.
You don’t see how… a demonstrably untrue point that you did not previously express… could be any clearer.
Okay.
HW was a step back from Reagan. McCain and Romney from Bush.
Okay?
In case you missed my last edit (which is understandable):
Sorry for all the edits.
So here is the crux of our disagreement.
They are going to get my vote in 2026. They can have that by default, and they will need it to have a chance in 2028.
But, you find it unreasonable that I just want them, in the next 3.5 years, to give me a reason to vote for them that is NOT derived from how bad R is? That’s just a bridge too far for me to ask of my elected representatives?
There are multiple problems here.
First, that it presumes that them not giving you a reason to vote for them that doesn’t sum up to “Literal fascists are bad” is, itself, a reason not to vote for them.
It is fucking not.
Votes are not a love letter. They are a strategic decision about the future of the country, made as one voice in an ocean of voices, few of whom are in total agreement with you. And if your decision ends up “Well, literal fascism is really bad… but I don’t think I’ve been woo’d enough by the non-fascists”, then you are putting a stamp of apathetic approval on fascism murdering large numbers of disadvantaged groups because of some bizarre sense of political vanity.
That is not a moral choice. It is not a reasonable choice. It’s not much more than saying that the lives of minorities are worth less than your feelings. Yes, including those that you love, and those that you are friends with.
Second, it is not unreasonable to want more out of your representatives. But it is also important to recognize how and when to get more out of your representatives. For example, building a credible third-party or interest group, or primarying some dipshit neoliberal’s ass out. Both of those require extensive groundwork.
Part of the issue, I think, is that the ultra-fucked FPTP system of the US which has led us to our two-party system has simultaneously robbed any opposition to the two parties of any sense of coalition-building or bargaining. Hence the spate of perennial four-year ‘also-ran’ presidential candidates we have to deal with.
Third, the presidency, in particular, has accumulated a wealth of unreasonable powers. Beyond questions of policy, it is vital to keep the presidency out of the hands of literal fascists because it is precisely the branch which they can do the most damage with. If the fascists had gained the House and Senate, and maintained the judiciary, we would still be at far less risk had we had some empty fucking neolib suit in the White House. Sinking a Dem Senator or Rep is far less concerning, in this light, than sinking a Dem presidency.
Fourth, despite the constant claims of speaking for the people, progressives have shown, time and time again, that we do not have the votes to win elections on our own in this fucking country. Most of the country is not as left-leaning as you or I. We have a lot of fucking work to do before “Listen to us or else!” is anything but a threat to let literal fucking fascists win.
Which means, ugly as it is, we need to be in coalition with the fucking neolibs. Primary their asses, by all means. But if the general election comes down to a Republican president or a Dem president, you better fucking be voting blue even if it’s some goddamn ghoul like Pelosi. Having the country return the more right-wing option does not signal to anyone that they should go left; it signals that the country desires to go further right, and both parties will respond as such.
Why do you keep reducing my argument down to things like the above?
What I want is for this to stop happening:
Thanks!
Agreed!
Great! Can we agree that it’s the fault of Democratic leadership and their strategies that the Fascists got the Presidency, or is it only the fault of the voters? (And need I remind you yet again, I voted Kamala in 2024.)
Who is talking about sinking a Dem presidency? Other people can make whatever decision they like. My vote belongs to no one by default anymore.
Why? Because when R went full on Hitler what did D do at the very next presidential election? Did Kamala pull to the left in her campaign? No. It was the same tired shit that they used to justify working against Bernie, the same tired shit Pelosi uses to justify working against any progressive at all, the same reason we still have almost no one but boomers in positions of substantial power within the party. Democrats are just as blind to how the nation has changed since WWII as Republicans are, or they are are just as reluctant to embrace it.
And, it’s not YOUR job to convince me I’ve got them all wrong. It’s THEIRS.
My vote is mine. It’s not yours or anyone else’s. If they don’t want it, that’s OK. But if they do, they need to act like it.
And why the fuck do you think that handing victory to the GOP will stop that from happening?
Why do you think it will do anything except accelerate that, assuming that graph is true (it is, quite demonstrably, not).
They bear a good deal of the blame.
You are. You are literally talking about the prospect of not voting for a Dem against literal fucking Nazis.
…
… why would the GOP going full fascist turn the Dems left?
There’s not some magic balance or pendulum in politics. The Dems aim for what demographics they think will give them a winning coalition. The country, not having moved dramatically left in the past 4 years, was not going to result in a dramatically more left Dem platform since 2020.
What.
Oh, you’re absolutely right, it’s not my job as a citizen to convince anyone not to endorse my death. After all. Blue Circus didn’t earn my life.
Treating this like some kind of fucking sports team is exactly why politics in this country is so fucked. You embrace the same idiotic bullshit of politics as spectacle that’s core to fascism, because, apparently, you don’t make the connections between what happens in government and what happens here in the real fucking world.
Your vote is your’s. And all the consequences of what you vote for, or fail to vote against, is also your’s.
If the lives of your loved ones aren’t worth a Blue Circus that doesn’t entertain you enough, I can’t stop you from endorsing fascism and genocide.
But I will absolutely condemn you for it, with what time I have left.
If you choose to allow fascism next election because the ‘shitlibs’ haven’t been entertaining enough, every ounce of blood that results that could’ve been prevented is on your fucking hands.
Well it seemed like this was becoming an actual conversation where you responded to what I was saying instead of whatever you are reading into things. This is about as much as I feel like dealing with in the way of rudeness right now, so have a good one.
Fwiw, I thought it was interesting.
So we all voted Kamala, and we all think the Dems are fucking up again and we can’t let the literal fucking fascists win.
What are we arguing about again? Is it simply “Dems, with notable or temporary exception are not doing enough and they need to”?
If we’re all on board with the duty to vote and barring some miracle third party candidate we’ll be voting Dem, I think we could get more substantive criticism out there.
I guess when I see “Dems suck” or “don’t blame the voters” I think its an argument against voting which we saw a lot of, or “Harris was terrible” which I (very surprisingly) disagree with.
I’m sorry that clearly fucking stating my issues and outlining the logic that leads to the invariable conclusion is ‘reading into things’, and I’m sorry that being fucking pissed that, even after it’s been pointed out numerous times, that you’re treating the lives of marginalized groups in the US, including my fucking life, as a ‘prize’ that needs to be ‘won’ by the Blue fucking Circus before your holy hand will deign to vote against our murder on your fucking ballot. I understand that my tone is making you uncomfortable, when you would prefer asspats for endorsing my death. Agree to disagree, right? It’s nothing major. Just another game to play and then go home safe and snug every night.
Have the day you plan to vote for.