First, that it presumes that them not giving you a reason to vote for them that doesn’t sum up to “Literal fascists are bad” is, itself, a reason not to vote for them.
It is fucking not.
Votes are not a love letter. They are a strategic decision about the future of the country, made as one voice in an ocean of voices, few of whom are in total agreement with you. And if your decision ends up “Well, literal fascism is really bad… but I don’t think I’ve been woo’d enough by the non-fascists”, then you are putting a stamp of apathetic approval on fascism murdering large numbers of disadvantaged groups because of some bizarre sense of political vanity.
That is not a moral choice. It is not a reasonable choice. It’s not much more than saying that the lives of minorities are worth less than your feelings. Yes, including those that you love, and those that you are friends with.
Second, it is not unreasonable to want more out of your representatives. But it is also important to recognize how and when to get more out of your representatives. For example, building a credible third-party or interest group, or primarying some dipshit neoliberal’s ass out. Both of those require extensive groundwork.
Part of the issue, I think, is that the ultra-fucked FPTP system of the US which has led us to our two-party system has simultaneously robbed any opposition to the two parties of any sense of coalition-building or bargaining. Hence the spate of perennial four-year ‘also-ran’ presidential candidates we have to deal with.
Third, the presidency, in particular, has accumulated a wealth of unreasonable powers. Beyond questions of policy, it is vital to keep the presidency out of the hands of literal fascists because it is precisely the branch which they can do the most damage with. If the fascists had gained the House and Senate, and maintained the judiciary, we would still be at far less risk had we had some empty fucking neolib suit in the White House. Sinking a Dem Senator or Rep is far less concerning, in this light, than sinking a Dem presidency.
Fourth, despite the constant claims of speaking for the people, progressives have shown, time and time again, that we do not have the votes to win elections on our own in this fucking country. Most of the country is not as left-leaning as you or I. We have a lot of fucking work to do before “Listen to us or else!” is anything but a threat to let literal fucking fascists win.
Which means, ugly as it is, we need to be in coalition with the fucking neolibs. Primary their asses, by all means. But if the general election comes down to a Republican president or a Dem president, you better fucking be voting blue even if it’s some goddamn ghoul like Pelosi. Having the country return the more right-wing option does not signal to anyone that they should go left; it signals that the country desires to go further right, and both parties will respond as such.
And if your decision ends up “Well, literal fascism is really bad… but I don’t think I’ve been woo’d enough by the non-fascists”, then you are putting a stamp of apathetic approval on fascism murdering large numbers of disadvantaged groups because of some bizarre sense of political vanity.
Why do you keep reducing my argument down to things like the above?
What I want is for this to stop happening:
Second, it is not unreasonable to want more out of your representatives.
Thanks!
the presidency, in particular, has accumulated a wealth of unreasonable powers.
Agreed!
Beyond questions of policy, it is vital to keep the presidency out of the hands of literal fascists because it is precisely the branch which they can do the most damage with.
Great! Can we agree that it’s the fault of Democratic leadership and their strategies that the Fascists got the Presidency, or is it only the fault of the voters? (And need I remind you yet again, I voted Kamala in 2024.)
than sinking a Dem presidency.
Who is talking about sinking a Dem presidency? Other people can make whatever decision they like. My vote belongs to no one by default anymore.
Why? Because when R went full on Hitler what did D do at the very next presidential election? Did Kamala pull to the left in her campaign? No. It was the same tired shit that they used to justify working against Bernie, the same tired shit Pelosi uses to justify working against any progressive at all, the same reason we still have almost no one but boomers in positions of substantial power within the party. Democrats are just as blind to how the nation has changed since WWII as Republicans are, or they are are just as reluctant to embrace it.
And, it’s not YOUR job to convince me I’ve got them all wrong. It’s THEIRS.
Fourth, despite the constant claims of speaking for the people, progressives have shown, time and time again, that we do not have the votes to win elections on our own in this fucking country. Most of the country is not as left-leaning as you or I.
My vote is mine. It’s not yours or anyone else’s. If they don’t want it, that’s OK. But if they do, they need to act like it.
Why do you keep reducing my argument down to things like the above?
What I want is for this to stop happening:
And why the fuck do you think that handing victory to the GOP will stop that from happening?
Why do you think it will do anything except accelerate that, assuming that graph is true (it is, quite demonstrably, not).
Great! Can we agree that it’s the fault of Democratic leadership and their strategies that the Fascists got the Presidency
They bear a good deal of the blame.
Who is talking about sinking a Dem presidency? Other people can make whatever decision they like. My vote belongs to no one by default anymore.
You are. You are literally talking about the prospect of not voting for a Dem against literal fucking Nazis.
Why? Because when R went full on Hitler what did D do at the very next presidential election? Did Kamala pull to the left in her campaign? No.
…
… why would the GOP going full fascist turn the Dems left?
There’s not some magic balance or pendulum in politics. The Dems aim for what demographics they think will give them a winning coalition. The country, not having moved dramatically left in the past 4 years, was not going to result in a dramatically more left Dem platform since 2020.
It was the same tired shit that they used to justify working against Bernie, the same tired shit Pelosi uses to justify working against any progressive at all
What.
And, it’s not YOUR job to convince me I’ve got them all wrong. It’s THEIRS.
Oh, you’re absolutely right, it’s not my job as a citizen to convince anyone not to endorse my death. After all. Blue Circus didn’t earn my life.
Treating this like some kind of fucking sports team is exactly why politics in this country is so fucked. You embrace the same idiotic bullshit of politics as spectacle that’s core to fascism, because, apparently, you don’t make the connections between what happens in government and what happens here in the real fucking world.
My vote is mine. It’s not yours or anyone else’s. If they don’t want it, that’s OK. But if they do, they need to act like it.
Your vote is your’s. And all the consequences of what you vote for, or fail to vote against, is also your’s.
If the lives of your loved ones aren’t worth a Blue Circus that doesn’t entertain you enough, I can’t stop you from endorsing fascism and genocide.
But I will absolutely condemn you for it, with what time I have left.
If you choose to allow fascism next election because the ‘shitlibs’ haven’t been entertaining enough, every ounce of blood that results that could’ve been prevented is on your fucking hands.
Well it seemed like this was becoming an actual conversation where you responded to what I was saying instead of whatever you are reading into things. This is about as much as I feel like dealing with in the way of rudeness right now, so have a good one.
So we all voted Kamala, and we all think the Dems are fucking up again and we can’t let the literal fucking fascists win.
What are we arguing about again? Is it simply “Dems, with notable or temporary exception are not doing enough and they need to”?
If we’re all on board with the duty to vote and barring some miracle third party candidate we’ll be voting Dem, I think we could get more substantive criticism out there.
I guess when I see “Dems suck” or “don’t blame the voters” I think its an argument against voting which we saw a lot of, or “Harris was terrible” which I (very surprisingly) disagree with.
No one seems to be interested in asking what I’d want to see to vote for them, only that I’m wrong for the vote that I might or might not cast in 3.5 years time, which I find very interesting on an intellectual level.
I’m sorry that clearly fucking stating my issues and outlining the logic that leads to the invariable conclusion is ‘reading into things’, and I’m sorry that being fucking pissed that, even after it’s been pointed out numerous times, that you’re treating the lives of marginalized groups in the US, including my fucking life, as a ‘prize’ that needs to be ‘won’ by the Blue fucking Circus before your holy hand will deign to vote against our murder on your fucking ballot. I understand that my tone is making you uncomfortable, when you would prefer asspats for endorsing my death. Agree to disagree, right? It’s nothing major. Just another game to play and then go home safe and snug every night.
I don’t have a plan yet. No one seems to be interested in asking what I’d want to see to vote for them, only that I’m wrong for the vote that I might or might not cast in 3.5 years time, which I find very interesting on an intellectual level.
It’s almost like I’m expected to uncritically serve up my vote to them for not being the other party.
I don’t have a plan yet. No one seems to be interested in asking what I’d want to see to vote for them, only that I’m wrong for the vote that I might or might not cast in 3.5 years time, which I find very interesting on an intellectual level.
It’s almost like I’m expected to uncritically serve up my vote to them for not being the other party.
It’s almost like the other party are literal fucking fascists who are intent on murdering people, yet you think that the lives of the murdered is ‘not enough’ entertainment for you to oppose literal fucking fascism.
“I MIGHT vote against the Nazis, I don’t know yet! It depends on how entertaining the SDP is!”
And then you wonder why potential Aktion T4 victims spit in your food.
There are multiple problems here.
First, that it presumes that them not giving you a reason to vote for them that doesn’t sum up to “Literal fascists are bad” is, itself, a reason not to vote for them.
It is fucking not.
Votes are not a love letter. They are a strategic decision about the future of the country, made as one voice in an ocean of voices, few of whom are in total agreement with you. And if your decision ends up “Well, literal fascism is really bad… but I don’t think I’ve been woo’d enough by the non-fascists”, then you are putting a stamp of apathetic approval on fascism murdering large numbers of disadvantaged groups because of some bizarre sense of political vanity.
That is not a moral choice. It is not a reasonable choice. It’s not much more than saying that the lives of minorities are worth less than your feelings. Yes, including those that you love, and those that you are friends with.
Second, it is not unreasonable to want more out of your representatives. But it is also important to recognize how and when to get more out of your representatives. For example, building a credible third-party or interest group, or primarying some dipshit neoliberal’s ass out. Both of those require extensive groundwork.
Part of the issue, I think, is that the ultra-fucked FPTP system of the US which has led us to our two-party system has simultaneously robbed any opposition to the two parties of any sense of coalition-building or bargaining. Hence the spate of perennial four-year ‘also-ran’ presidential candidates we have to deal with.
Third, the presidency, in particular, has accumulated a wealth of unreasonable powers. Beyond questions of policy, it is vital to keep the presidency out of the hands of literal fascists because it is precisely the branch which they can do the most damage with. If the fascists had gained the House and Senate, and maintained the judiciary, we would still be at far less risk had we had some empty fucking neolib suit in the White House. Sinking a Dem Senator or Rep is far less concerning, in this light, than sinking a Dem presidency.
Fourth, despite the constant claims of speaking for the people, progressives have shown, time and time again, that we do not have the votes to win elections on our own in this fucking country. Most of the country is not as left-leaning as you or I. We have a lot of fucking work to do before “Listen to us or else!” is anything but a threat to let literal fucking fascists win.
Which means, ugly as it is, we need to be in coalition with the fucking neolibs. Primary their asses, by all means. But if the general election comes down to a Republican president or a Dem president, you better fucking be voting blue even if it’s some goddamn ghoul like Pelosi. Having the country return the more right-wing option does not signal to anyone that they should go left; it signals that the country desires to go further right, and both parties will respond as such.
Why do you keep reducing my argument down to things like the above?
What I want is for this to stop happening:
Thanks!
Agreed!
Great! Can we agree that it’s the fault of Democratic leadership and their strategies that the Fascists got the Presidency, or is it only the fault of the voters? (And need I remind you yet again, I voted Kamala in 2024.)
Who is talking about sinking a Dem presidency? Other people can make whatever decision they like. My vote belongs to no one by default anymore.
Why? Because when R went full on Hitler what did D do at the very next presidential election? Did Kamala pull to the left in her campaign? No. It was the same tired shit that they used to justify working against Bernie, the same tired shit Pelosi uses to justify working against any progressive at all, the same reason we still have almost no one but boomers in positions of substantial power within the party. Democrats are just as blind to how the nation has changed since WWII as Republicans are, or they are are just as reluctant to embrace it.
And, it’s not YOUR job to convince me I’ve got them all wrong. It’s THEIRS.
My vote is mine. It’s not yours or anyone else’s. If they don’t want it, that’s OK. But if they do, they need to act like it.
And why the fuck do you think that handing victory to the GOP will stop that from happening?
Why do you think it will do anything except accelerate that, assuming that graph is true (it is, quite demonstrably, not).
They bear a good deal of the blame.
You are. You are literally talking about the prospect of not voting for a Dem against literal fucking Nazis.
…
… why would the GOP going full fascist turn the Dems left?
There’s not some magic balance or pendulum in politics. The Dems aim for what demographics they think will give them a winning coalition. The country, not having moved dramatically left in the past 4 years, was not going to result in a dramatically more left Dem platform since 2020.
What.
Oh, you’re absolutely right, it’s not my job as a citizen to convince anyone not to endorse my death. After all. Blue Circus didn’t earn my life.
Treating this like some kind of fucking sports team is exactly why politics in this country is so fucked. You embrace the same idiotic bullshit of politics as spectacle that’s core to fascism, because, apparently, you don’t make the connections between what happens in government and what happens here in the real fucking world.
Your vote is your’s. And all the consequences of what you vote for, or fail to vote against, is also your’s.
If the lives of your loved ones aren’t worth a Blue Circus that doesn’t entertain you enough, I can’t stop you from endorsing fascism and genocide.
But I will absolutely condemn you for it, with what time I have left.
If you choose to allow fascism next election because the ‘shitlibs’ haven’t been entertaining enough, every ounce of blood that results that could’ve been prevented is on your fucking hands.
Well it seemed like this was becoming an actual conversation where you responded to what I was saying instead of whatever you are reading into things. This is about as much as I feel like dealing with in the way of rudeness right now, so have a good one.
Fwiw, I thought it was interesting.
So we all voted Kamala, and we all think the Dems are fucking up again and we can’t let the literal fucking fascists win.
What are we arguing about again? Is it simply “Dems, with notable or temporary exception are not doing enough and they need to”?
If we’re all on board with the duty to vote and barring some miracle third party candidate we’ll be voting Dem, I think we could get more substantive criticism out there.
I guess when I see “Dems suck” or “don’t blame the voters” I think its an argument against voting which we saw a lot of, or “Harris was terrible” which I (very surprisingly) disagree with.
No one seems to be interested in asking what I’d want to see to vote for them, only that I’m wrong for the vote that I might or might not cast in 3.5 years time, which I find very interesting on an intellectual level.
I’m sorry that clearly fucking stating my issues and outlining the logic that leads to the invariable conclusion is ‘reading into things’, and I’m sorry that being fucking pissed that, even after it’s been pointed out numerous times, that you’re treating the lives of marginalized groups in the US, including my fucking life, as a ‘prize’ that needs to be ‘won’ by the Blue fucking Circus before your holy hand will deign to vote against our murder on your fucking ballot. I understand that my tone is making you uncomfortable, when you would prefer asspats for endorsing my death. Agree to disagree, right? It’s nothing major. Just another game to play and then go home safe and snug every night.
Have the day you plan to vote for.
I don’t have a plan yet. No one seems to be interested in asking what I’d want to see to vote for them, only that I’m wrong for the vote that I might or might not cast in 3.5 years time, which I find very interesting on an intellectual level.
It’s almost like I’m expected to uncritically serve up my vote to them for not being the other party.
It’s almost like the other party are literal fucking fascists who are intent on murdering people, yet you think that the lives of the murdered is ‘not enough’ entertainment for you to oppose literal fucking fascism.
“I MIGHT vote against the Nazis, I don’t know yet! It depends on how entertaining the SDP is!”
And then you wonder why potential Aktion T4 victims spit in your food.