it’s not geography aware, it’s network topology aware

Yes, I’m using “geographic awareness” here as shorthand for the same algorithm that BGP uses to calculate shortest route. As far as I know, BGP has no knowledge of “countries” or “continents”, it makes decisions purely on local policy and connectivity info available to it. However, the resulting topology map does greatly resemble the corresponding geographic map, a natural consequence of the internet being a physical engineering structure. I’m not sure how publicly available the global BGP data is. If you were designing a backbone-bandwidth-preserving P2P app you would either give it BGP data directly, or if that’s not available, give it the world map to get most of the same benefit.

topology that is often obscured by the ISPs for a variety of benign and malevolent reasons

The multicast proposal would need to be routed through the very same ISP-obscured topology, so there is no advantage over topology-aware P2P.

I’m not sure this math is mathing

As a graph problem, it does look to me within factor of 2 is practical.

First consider a hypothetical topology-aware “daisy chain” scheme, where every swarm user has upload ratio of exactly one. Then every backbone and last-mile connection gets used exactly twice. This is why I say factor of 2 is the upper limit. It’s like a maze problem where you can navigate an entire maze and only traverse each corridor twice. Then look at the more practical “pyramid” scheme where half the users have upload ratio of about 2. Some links get used twice but many get used only once! UK-UK1 link is the only one to be used 3 times. Notably observe that US-JP and US-UK transcontinental links only get used once, as you wanted! Overall this pyramid scheme looks to me to be within 20% efficiency of the optimal multicast scheme.

we’re still using “someone else’s computer” … at “we’re” using “our computer” and that’s the royal “we”. Multicast is all switch no server, all juice, no seed

What do you think backbone routers are? They are computers! Specialized for a particular task, but computers nonetheless. Owned by someone other than you. Your whole lament is that you can’t force those owners to implement multicast on their routers. I think using the royal “our” computer, something we can do right now without forcing anyone else, is much better by comparison. If you insist that P2P swarm members, they who actually want to see your livestream, are not good enough, that you only want to use “your” computer to broadcast and no one else’s, then you are left with no options other than bouncing HAM video signals off the ionosphere. And even the radio spectrum is claimed by governments.

MBGP table will be megabytes long and extremely dynamic

I think you underestimate the size. Imagine if multicast were ubiquitous, billions of internet-connected users each with dozens? hundreds? of multicast subscriptions. Each video content creator is a multicast, each blogpost you follow, each multi-twitter handle, each lemmy community you subscribe to. Hundreds easily. Thats many gigabytes, possibly hundreds of gigabytes, of state to fit into every router. BGP is simple because you care only about the physical links you actually have. You can stuff entire IP ranges into a single routing table entry. Your entire table could be a dozen entries. Fits inside the silicon. With multicast I don’t think you can fold it in, you must keep the entire many-to-many table on every single router^[1]. And consult the 100GB table to route every single packet, in case it needs to get split. As you said, impossible with 1990s technology, probably possible but contrary to business goals in 2020.

You are concerned about the battery life of your phone when you use the bandwidth of 2 video streams compared to watching just 1? Yet you expect every single router owner to plug in hundreds of gigabytes of extra RAM sticks and spend extra CPU power and electricity to look up routing tables to handle your multicast traffic for you. You are just offloading the resource usage onto other people’s computers! Not “our” computers - “theirs”. Remember how much criticism Bitcoin got for wasting resources? Not the proof of work, but the having to store a duplicate copy of 100GB’s of transactions blockchain on every single node? All that hard drive space wasted! When “Mastercard” and “Visa” can do it with only a single database on a mainframe. Yet now you want “them” to do the same and “waste” 100GB’s of RAM on every single router just so your battery life is a little better.

If everyone suddenly used the internet to this full potential, then we would get the screws turned on us. … Multicast would essentially fly under the radar.

This does not follow. Didn’t you say that multicast was already sabotaged by the very same cablo-distribution networks to maintain their send-monopoly? You expect to force the ISPs to turn multicast back on and somehow have it fly under the radar, but P2P would get the screws turned? It can’t be one and not the other! If you plan to have the governments force the ISPs to fall in line and implement multicast standards, then why couldn’t you have the same governments (driven by democratic pressure of billions of internet users demanding freedom, presumably) enshrine P2P rights? Again, remember that P2P is something we already have, something that already works and can be expanded with no additional cooperation from other players. Multicast is something that would need to be forced on others, on everyone, and require physical hardware updates. If there are future restrictions on P2P, they would be easier to defend against politically and technologically. If you cannot defend P2P, then you for sure do not have enough political power to force multicast.

[1]: Thinking about this, maybe you could roll it in a little. Given N internet users (~a billion), each with S subscriptions (say a hundred), C number of content feeds (a hundred million? 10% of users are also creators, 90% are pure consumers), and each router has P physical links (say ten), then instead of N*S amount of state (100GB’s), each router could fold it down into C*P amount of state (1GB’s). As in “If I receive a multicast packet from [source ip=US.5.6.7] to [destination ip=anyone], route copies of it out through phy04, phy07, and phy12”. You would still need a mechanism to propagate table changes pretty rapidly (full refresh about once every minute?). Your phone can be switching cells or powering on and off. You don’t want to multicast packets to a powered-off IP - that would be waste of resources!

And how do you detect oversubscribing? If a million watchers subcribe to 1 multicast livestream - it’s fine, but what happens when 1 troll subscribes to a million livestreams? If I subscribe to 1 million video streams, obviously my last-mile connection cannot fit them all. With TCP unicast, the senders would not receive TCP ACK replies from me and throttle down. But with multicast, the routers in between do not know about my last mile, or even if my phone is still powered on since later than a minute ago. All they know is “if receive multicast from IP1, send to phy04; if receive multicast from IP2, send to phy04;” etc. Would my upstream routers not get saturated trying to send a million video streams to a dead IP? Would we need to implement some sort of a reverse-multicast version of “TCP ACK”?

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