[dude with glasses in a communist t-shirt, arguing] I’m the only leftist here, your opinions are TRASH

[dude holding a theory book on smug, arguing] Read theory you losers, you’re all WRONG

[dude in an anarchist hoodie, arguing] Nuh-uh, I’m the only leftist here, you’re SHITLIBS

[the three dudes are now caught in a cartoon fight, glasses gone flying, punches everywhere, while a firing squad of nazis are targeting them with rifles]

[a confused nazi asks] Why… why are they still arguing?

https://thebad.website/comic/infighting

  • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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    2 days ago

    Communism is generally held to be about class and state abolition, not hierarchy in general. Delegates in your model still have hierarchy, what’s important is accountability and that the general interest is upheld. As for the PRC, it’s already socialist, the large firms and key industries are publicly owned. It certainly isn’t anarchist, nor is it a stateless, classless, moneyless, global society, but it’s socialist.

    • rivvvver@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      2 days ago

      Communism is generally held to be about class and state abolition

      which are hierarchies, and the criticism of these are based on the same root issue that all hierarchies have. i admit that this statement was somewhat inflammatory, altho i firmly believe that anarchism is the natural conclusion of the communist idea.

      Delegates in your model still have hierarchy,

      no. the power is always among the people who choose the delegate, formulate their mandate, and can recall them at any time. the delegate has no power over the people, nor is the delegate coerced into their role.

      and u can call the PRC socialist all u like, but that still dont make it true.

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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        2 days ago

        Inter-class hierarchy exists, ie bourgeois and proletarian, but intra-class hierarchy also exists, ie worker and manager. The Marxist critique of class involves the fact that there’s hierarchy, but that’s not the focus, the focus is on class as a social relation to production as informed by ownership. I’m more than willing to agree that your critique is the general anarchist critique, and I’m okay with you preferring anarchism, I just think that if you’re trying to argue that Marxism isn’t a communist ideology because it doesn’t hold the same view of hierarchy as anarchism does, that that’s a bit myopic.

        no. the power is always among the people who choose the delegate, formulate their mandate, and can recall them at any time. the delegate has no power over the people, nor is the delegate coerced into their role.

        Just because the delegate was elected and is subject to recall doesn’t mean it isn’t a hierarchy, though. Unless your point is that the delegate can only do what 100% of those who elected them want, and if any oppose them then they have no power, but in that case everything would collapse to a halt. The PRC has delegates and elections, and recall elections too, so I’m not sure I understand your criticism with that.

        As for not considering the PRC socialist, are you saying it doesn’t fit the anarchist conception of socialism, or the conception of socialism that includes Marxism as socialist? Ie, is your argument that the PRC does not meet the Marxist understanding of socialism as well as the anarchist? This is something that needs heavy judtification if so, but if you just mean the anarchist conception then I agree, the PRC isn’t anarchist and isn’t pretending to be.

        • rivvvver@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          2 days ago

          ok this gotta be my last response bc i got better shit to do today.

          so first off, i simply dont care what the marxist definition or critique of something is, so yes, please understand it as just the general anarchist critique.

          Unless your point is that the delegate can only do what 100% of those who elected them want,

          well yes, if they want to stay a delegate they have to comply with the mandate they were given. i also understand that there may be practical considerations that lead ppl to choose weak (e.g. 95%) consensus decisions, and u can call that hierarchical if u like, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt strive to abolish all hierarchies.

          the way u have described the PRC does not sound like they have delegates, rather representatives. ive already explained the difference.

          as for considering the PRC state capitalist, this is my conception (altho i know a few marxists who agree), and so far ive only argued about the ownership situation and not touched upon wealth accumulation or markets at all, but i think ive still made a fair argument.

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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            2 days ago

            Well, up front, it’s nice that you at least cleared up that you don’t consider Marxism to be socialist. I disagree with that, of course, but now that we’ve established that your definition of socialism is exclusionary of Marxism, then that does at least mean we can have a consistent conversation.

            As for delegates vs. representatives, the PRC’s democracy extends beyond simply voting for candidates and representatives. I already explained that each rung makes decisions for that which their area needs, and elect from among themselves delegates that they can recall. People’s integration into politics isn’t relegated to simple elections, but consensus building, feedback, drafts of policy, etc.

            As for ownership, your argument was that politicians are literally owners of publicly owned industry, which isn’t how public ownership works anywhere. Even if the PRC is centrally planned for the majority of its large firms and key industries, that doesn’t mean those large firms and key industries are run for profit, personal enrichment of capitalists, participate in markets, etc. There’s nothing at all resembling capitalism there, so state capitalism is an absurdity. I gave clear examples of capitalist systems with heavy state involvement, like Singapore, that better fit “state capitalism.”

            Either way, this will be my last comment too. Have a good one!

              • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                2 days ago

                Again, I’m aware of the anarchist critique, I used to be an anarchist myself, I just firmly disagree with it.

                  • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                    2 days ago

                    I did watch it, just posting a 4 minute video from an anarchist YouTuber doesn’t mean I immediately need to agree with it. Anark coats it as a Marxist critique, but it’s thoroughly an anarchist critique attempting to claim higher and universal legitimacy by invoking Marx and Engels, but what Marx and Engels described as state capitalism was Bismarck’s Germany, which had the large firms and key industries absolutely privately owned with minor exceptions like railways.

                    The state in Bismarck’s Germany played a hand in directing the private economy, while retaining class relations. It wasn’t because they had a state, it’s because the base of production was capitalism, subject to the M-C…P…C’-M’ circuit. Anark’s critique is ignorant at best to dishonest at worst. Here’s Engels directly speaking about it:

                    For only when the means of production and distribution have actually outgrown the form of management by joint-stock companies, and when, therefore, the taking them over by the State has become economically inevitable, only then — even if it is the State of today that effects this — is there an economic advance, the attainment of another step preliminary to the taking over of all productive forces by society itself. But of late, since Bismarck went in for State-ownership of industrial establishments, a kind of spurious Socialism has arisen, degenerating, now and again, into something of flunkyism, that without more ado declares all State-ownership, even of the Bismarkian sort, to be socialistic. Certainly, if the taking over by the State of the tobacco industry is socialistic, then Napoleon and Metternich must be numbered among the founders of Socialism. If the Belgian State, for quite ordinary political and financial reasons, itself constructed its chief railway lines; if Bismarck, not under any economic compulsion, took over for the State the chief Prussian lines, simply to be the better able to have them in hand in case of war, to bring up the railway employees as voting cattle for the Government, and especially to create for himself a new source of income independent of parliamentary votes — this was, in no sense, a socialistic measure, directly or indirectly, consciously or unconsciously. Otherwise, the Royal Maritime Company, the Royal porcelain manufacture, and even the regimental tailor of the army would also be socialistic institutions, or even, as was seriously proposed by a sly dog in Frederick William III’s reign, the taking over by the State of the brothels.

                    Instead, what needs to happen is proletarian revolution, and gradual appropriation of property into the hands of the new, proletarian state, until all property is collectivized and the proletarian state is no more:

                    When, at last, it becomes the real representative of the whole of society, it renders itself unnecessary. As soon as there is no longer any social class to be held in subjection; as soon as class rule, and the individual struggle for existence based upon our present anarchy in production, with the collisions and excesses arising from these, are removed, nothing more remains to be repressed, and a special repressive force, a State, is no longer necessary. The first act by virtue of which the State really constitutes itself the representative of the whole of society — the taking possession of the means of production in the name of society — this is, at the same time, its last independent act as a State. State interference in social relations becomes, in one domain after another, superfluous, and then dies out of itself; the government of persons is replaced by the administration of things, and by the conduct of processes of production. The State is not “abolished”. It dies out. This gives the measure of the value of the phrase: “a free State”, both as to its justifiable use at times by agitators, and as to its ultimate scientific inefficiency; and also of the demands of the so-called anarchists for the abolition of the State out of hand.

                    So yes, I did watch it. It’s one of those videos that only really makes sense to people that haven’t put in the time to take Marxism seriously, and just want to quotegrab Marx and Engels to give their points higher legitimacy. Even Anark’s examples of Chile and Yugoslavia were more market-focused and less collectivized, Yugoslavia in particular relied on IMF loans to keep going. Anark’s mislabling of socialism as intrinsically worker-ownership and not collectivized ownership pretty much leaves only anarchism and anarchist adjacent ideologies as socialist. And, the USSR and PRC, Cuba, etc. do have worker democracy:

                    I’m sorry I took your video seriously, I guess? I dunno, were you just wanting me to concede the point outright?