Since Trump, I’m finding the Lemmy.world experience to be increasingly akin to an echo chamber and it’s quite frankly starting to bore me. (Inb4, I’m a left winger and I don’t like Trump, but I’m much more interested in a good spirited debate or novel points of view than I am in Orange man bad Nazi circle jerks)
If I wanted the same repetitive comments to be upvoted and any different opinion at all to be downvoted and even blocked/banned, I’d have just stayed on Reddit.
Are there any instances where different, opposing and novel points of view are celebrated and debated rather than simply derided and downvoted?
just like vanguardism
Can you elaborate?
I don’t like the state and like the idea of a vanguard party even less and I belive that user to be vanguardist
thank you for providing an example of dialogue that’s detached from reality
so you are not a vanguardist?
or am I wrong about vanguardism being bad?
please elaborate
It’s detached from reality because you’re just randomly chucking in some political terms you learned on reddit under an unrelated comment thinking it’s some kind of slam-dunk.
no, I know what a vanguard party is and that I don’t support it, now we’re arguing about why I don’t support it
You are wrong about vanguarism being bad because history clear shows that it is the most reliable method for actually combating capitalism. Anarchists refuse to accept this basic reality and continue advocating approaches that have failed time and again for over a century now. It’s quite telling that this ideology exists primarily in the western imperial core.
no, I just think that freedom is more important than defeating capitalism
I’d rather take my hrt, guns and free speech over a vanguard, sorry
also see how it has worked in russia, how the soviet union has defeated capitalism and how capitalist western germany was almost economically stronger than the entire ussr (including eastern germany)
So, what you’re actually saying you’d rather live under capitalism because it’s not impacting your freedom, and you don’t care about others. Meanwhile, claiming that western Germany was economically stronger than the USSR is another example of you being divorced from reality. It’s the same sort of logic people applied to modern Russia comparing its GDP to Italy. Now, it turns out Russian industrial production is higher than all of the west combined. This is how capitalism rots people brains, they start thinking imaginary numbers are more important than material reality.
I think drawing a line between a vague notion of “freedom” and what existed in AES without doing any of the work to back that up makes little sense. Further, I think trying to say Western Germany, which was highly developed and already one of the most Imperialist countries on the planet at the turn of the 20th century was stronger economically than the USSR, which started the 20th century as a mostly undeveloped agrarian society just beginning Capitalism, is ridiculous.
That’s like comparing someone who worked daily for what they accomplished for themselves with the Trust Fund kid who got a job at his father’s investment firm.
Moreover, the USSR had constant and stable economic growth for its entire existence, and one of the highest rates of growth on the planet, while doing 80% of the combat in WWII and providing free education, healthcare, retirement, doubling life expectancies, and more.
Typical westerner living off the people of the global south’s labor
Of course you dont want change with your fuck you got mine attitude
lol, china does the same imperialist shit in africa that the west does
What do you think the “State” is? Marxists and Anarchists generally disagree on what constitutes the state, Marxists see it as a tool of class oppression and Anarchists see it as a tool of hierarchy. Neither Marxists nor Anarchists seek to perpetuate the State.
As for a Vanguard, all that means is the most politically advanced of the revolutionary class. Since political knowledge is unequal, there will always be more and less advanced among a class, whether you formalize it into a party or not. The consequences of refusing to formalize this difference means you can’t democratize it or protect against bad actors, a problem elaborated on in The Tyranny of Structurelessness.
Furthermore, there is historical proof of the effectiveness of Vanguard parties in establishing Socialism and improving the lives of the Working classes, from the peasantry to the proletariat. Calling such a strategy “detached from reality” is wrong, there is clear theoretical and historical evidence for the practicality and effectiveness of Vanguard parties.
I actually belive the state in its current form to be a tool of economical, personal and class opression
and I belive no state can exist without at least 2 of the above, but I want none of the above
What’s your proposed solution? You can’t force everyone’s political knowledge to being fully equal, so there will be a vanguard whether you formalize and democratize it or let it form naturally and behind closed doors. Further, you can’t get rid of both class and hierarchy without returning to tribal forms of hunter-gatherer societies, large industry requires administration. A horizontal network of communes retains classes by turning everyone into petite bourgeoisie, so you either want to abolish hierarchy, class, or industry.
if I had to choose I’d rather end all hirarchy
Okay, so how are you doing that without a vanguard forming? Intentional or not, there will be differences in political knowledge and organizational skill. Do you formalize it? Let it form?